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Comfort penalty for manual transmission, and related gripes


#3

Getting binned for an unfitting a car is not a reason to complain about the game. Transmissions for the most part are balanced enough and compared to IRL I think the game adjust stats accordingly. It’s not anyone else’s fault you can’t make an adequate car for a fictional customer.


#4

The CSR scoring only made me aware of the problem, so only in that way I am responding to it. I lost CSR for other unrelated reasons, I just never noticed the comfort penalty for a stick prior to now. This suggestion is not a direct result of the CSR round. Realistically I view the CSRs as a sort of beta test for the tycoon portion to uncover potential conflicts like this.

Objectively I feel the penalty is subjective, and affects game balance. This suggestion is based on my personal opinion that an automatic transmission is less comfortable to some drivers than a manual, and my understanding that a manual is less comfortable to other drivers. The suggestion is to remove the comfort penalty from the most common transmission options as they are preferred to some degree by certain drivers. A buyer in the campaign, CSR (and similar), IRL, or whatever will choose a transmission type they prefer and thus are most comfortable with. Manuals are unpopular, not uncomfortable. I maintain the comfort penalty for the racing type transmissions as NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) concerns are less important in a DCT and sequential.

I may (likely) be shot down in this line of thinking, but I feel it’s a valid opinion on its own merits.


#5

Again, your line of thinking has no basis on reality, in reality an automatic transmission is more comfortable than a manual and a dct, just like it is in-game. Just because you dream about having a manual in your hand 24/7 does not change reality. Also, who the hell actually thinks a manual is more comfortable than auto. Manuals are unpopular BECAUSE they are uncomfortable and harder to use vs an automatic. What do you think the big selling point of automatics were in the 50s and 60s vs the common manual at the time, comfort and ease of use.


#6

Personally, the only thing I drive with two pedals is a bicycle. Automatics have shift lag, spongy feel, gear creep, and inconsistent shift speeds (especially on down shift). You can’t plan shifts effectivly, or match road speed to rpm (power band), and yes, I know about manu-matics (paddle shift). They have a huge input lag, and skipping gears is inconsistent and tedious. Automatics rob you of gear train feel, and the ability to plan speed changes effectively, and engine braking. DCT and sequential overcome many of these inherit limitations of a fluid coupling, but the computer simply lacks clutch feel and you get terrible shifts.

Bottom line, I hate automatics. I am uncomfortable as a driver when I cant feel the positive gear train response of my throttle input. I know that makes me a minority, but objectively somebody who chooses an automatic or a manual does so because it is more comfortable to them. Because the option exists I submit that placing a mathematically derived penalty on a preference is subjective, and a logic issue with the game scoring. In my opinion it is tantamount to placing a score deduction on a puzzle video game (like Tetris) because you play in color blind mode.


#7

I can tell from this post that you have never driven an auto newer than 1985. Its quite clear your mindset is set on a specific way of thinking, that is frankly, wrong on many levels.


#8

I work at a car dealership. I drove 3 MY2019s today. 2 six speeds, and a 10 speed. I hate the 10 speed more, it shifted 4 times just getting out of the parking lot, sloppy gear skipping shifts. 10 gears, and it’s in 6th doing 25MPH. So no, I have driven autos after 1985. The problems still exist. You think I’m hard on automatics, ask me about electric steering, and auto start stop. I get better road feel playing Forza on a 360 controller than driving an actual car these days. My comfort behind the wheel is based on my ability to feel the road. Modern cars are like sitting on a couch watching dash cam footage, and I hate it.

Again, I know I am a minority, but a floaty ride with dead steering feedback makes me hate driving.


#9

You illogical hate automatics, yes, still does not mean that automation needs to change its balance for one guy who lost csr because he made a car for himself instead of the csr character.


#10

For the third time, this complaint has nothing to do with CSR. This has to do with an issue I noticed during CSR, not because of it.

Subjectively I dislike automatics. Objectively comfort is a score (in game). Subjectively scoring a preference affects game balance. I get the feeling you subjectively dislike me, objectively I am sharing a subjective opinion which is neither right or wrong, just an opinion. Objectively I respect your opinion that I subjectively dislike.

Not being a smart-ass, just trying to be clear.


#11

If I may interject. What I’ve read here seems to indicate a difference in the use of the word “comfortable”. At least, at the start of this debate,
USDMFTW was using it in the context of “more relaxing”, while MCP was saying “more familiar”.


#12

Yes, an interjection is most welcome. This seems to have gotten heated. You have a fair assessment, however when I am describing the comfort of driving a manual (at least in my particular case) it is because I experience a slight form of sensory deprivation driving an automatic. It’s weird, but it’s true. I have spoken to other manual enthusiasts who describe different sensations when driving a manual. I also have spoken to many people who prefer an automatic for similar, if not inverse reasons.

This is the basis for my suggestion the penalty for a manual is inappropriate. Comfort is subjective, some people hate egyptian cotton, don’t ask why. I maintain that DCT and sequential (being racing derived) do not focus on refinement. They are objectively louder, and rougher as the focus is immediate power transmission, not refined gear mesh. Some sequentials to this day use dog gears because they are stronger, every A/T and M/T I know of (excluding some niche purpose build units) use angled gear mesh to run quieter.


#13

Nothing personal or heated argument at all, just want to make that clear, its just your trying to apply your specific opinion in a matter that has no basis on reality for the majority of car owners. The manual comfort penalty is there because its just simply not as comfortable as an automatic, using both definitions like stm316 said, an auto is indeed more comfortable in the sense of relaxation and many many more people are familiar with an automatic car over a manual, SO familiar with a standard auto that many cvts have fake shifts that hurt their actual performance. Like i said before, dcts and sequentials have a comfort penalty vs normal automatics in-game like they should, while manuals have the biggest comfort penalty, which they should because they harder to drive and require more driver input, which to most people is the opposite of what they want.


#14

I mistook your tone, damn textual encounters.

So if I understand your point, neither the manual nor the auto are less comfortable on the individual level (being a preference). However, based on general popularity manuals appear uncomfortable for being in the minority of preference?

I submit then that all mass produced cars with manuals do have an automatic option, and that some cars currently only offered in auto would benefit from the option (I for one would like a V6 Chevy Caprice with a manual, but I can’t afford to import and re-badge a Holden). This is tantamount to making left handed versions of household items. Most leftys can use right handed scissors because of practice, but would greatly prefer left handed tools for their specific comfort.


#15

Exactly, automation is a car company tycoon game designed to have the player make a company selling cars to the general public. Just like in real life, some markets(people) want maximum comfort and will walk away from anything with a manual while another market may walk away from anything with an auto. Its just that the people looking for a car as a comfortable appliance far far outweighs those looking for a car to peak their senses.

Individual level is like the markets in automation, you build the car for your intended market or else it just fails. For example, if the corolla was manual only in the US, no one would buy it because a manual does not really match the intended market.


#16

And that is genuinely depressing. I’m probably taking the term comfort too literally (as I am known to do). I still feel that drivability is a more accurate descriptor for the difference though.


#17

Its both, manuals and dcts and sequentials have lower comfort and drivability while manuals and dcts provide much higher sportiness and fuel econ(though fuel econ irl is even better with autos than manuals now)


#18

I did see that (the ratings). The IRL better MPG I will argue though. The testing protocol is pretty specific, and well documented. Numbers tend to get… skewed.


#19

I dont mean EPA numbers, i mean irl numbers, you can find those on fuelly


#20

Never heard of this site. Turns out my MPG is pretty typical. Real numbers help.


#21

The things you’ve described about modern cars and automatics that you dislike are all things that would, in the game, detract from Sportiness. Slushy automatic response and numb electric power steering are accounted for in the game’s stats in Sportiness, not comfort. I think its a little tough for you to say objectively that automatics are only subjectively more comfortable because you prefer sporty characteristics in a car. In the game’s demographics, people with your preferences are accounted for in demographics where sportiness is much more important than comfort. I daily drive a manual and enjoy it, and I am comfortable with it, but that doesn’t mean the manual transmission makes the car more comfortable. Similarly, I feel more comfortable off-roading a truck with solid axles and manual lockers, but it would be silly of me to say that a solid front axle makes a truck more comfortable.


#22

@donutsnail
Those are good points. I actually daily drive a truck with straight axles front and rear, so it is absolutely familiar. That being said I actually prefer a multi-link or an SLA (double wishbone) for in a car. I get that feedback I look for in a vehicle, and the control and smoothness are there. Don’t care for McPherson, they ride ok, but I have replaced wayyyyy too many strut bearings to trust one long term. Mechanically I prefer a good ball joint or bushing. That’s a technical preference, and does not affect my assessment of comfort or sportiness. Personally I also much prefer RWD over FWD. Mostly this is related to torque steer, and power distribution. I can drive a FWD fine, so there is no difference in comfort, but I can tell a difference mostly in drivability, and somewhat in sportiness. Both of these factors play into the familiar vs relaxing argument for what defines comfort. I just maintain that the M/T vs A/T debate is about drivability and sportiness, not comfort, and that the nomenclature is wrong (implying the manual is unwanted, instead of niche).