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Green Hell Lap Times


#21

Why not just use the top gear rules. Street legal ( 98 Ron, converters, no semi slicks.) and set a maximum bottom out penalty for passing the speed bump test.


#22

That’s pretty much what the original rules stated (minus the bottom-out penalty). We just had a lot of entries that were the race cars… with a converter and sports tyres whacked onto them :laughing: Without other real life production car constraints it just didn’t seem to be compelling enough to make what we’d generally call a ‘production car’.


#23

Having entered one of those yeah they were just one off race cars, but short of setting a minimum score for safety and maybe drivability along with a maximum cost or production units, it’s got to be up to the user to decide.


#24

maybe noise and emissions restriction and say, 1oo mm height?


#25

Zonda R, racecar? maybe, still a production car.


#26

Not at all a production car, they only made 10 of those. And they weren’t road legal. In fact, they were so extreme, that they didn’t fit any racing regulations either, the rear wing and the engine were too big for that. And it had more in common with the upcoming Huayra than with the Zonda itself, like the engine and the front and rear suspensions (I think).

This would need to be categorized as a racing car, for sure.


#27

It’s also to loud for any trackday racing, even if it was street legal.


#28

I’ve been thinking (a bit) on the rules about production cars:

I see no problem on the next:

  • fuel type 98Ron max.
  • no semi slicks
  • no race intake
  • no race exhaust (race headers)
  • when available, you have to use every muffler option
  • chassis material cannot be carbon fibre
  • no carbon ceramic brakes

and a few ‘debatable’ rules:

  • weight/power ratio lower than 2 (i.e. 1400kg / 700cv or so, would not be allowed)
  • undertray cannot be set on downforce configuration
  • maybe a limit on rim diameter (20"?)

#29

Some of those rules I unequivocally agree. The one about brakes, chassis, undertray… They actually exclude real world cars that are road legal and would post a valid time on the board if their company allowed it (I’m looking at you, Ferrari, Koenigsegg).

To get around this, I’m going to be testing a class system soon. I find that use of certain components does boost potential performance. But checking all those things does make the process a lot more complicated… We’ll see how the test goes!


#30

Yep, I know that the brakes, undertray or the W/P ratio will erase some options…, but they are a narrow (and somewhat extreme) spectrum of production cars.

[quote=“strop”][…]
To get around this, I’m going to be testing a class system soon. I find that use of certain components does boost potential performance. But checking all those things does make the process a lot more complicated… We’ll see how the test goes![/quote]
Strop, precisely that’s the kind of thing that I would not like for me (checking and reviewing cars through a complex system), I mean, it’s for simply fun, enjoyment… dunno, well, If you are ok with that extra work no problem. :slight_smile:

Another suggestion would be adding another category.
Production cars
Sport or perfomnace cars
Prototype/race cars


#31

[quote=“Razyx”]I’ve been thinking (a bit) on the rules about production cars:

I see no problem on the next:

  • fuel type 98Ron max.
  • no semi slicks
  • no race intake
  • no race exhaust (race headers)
  • when available, you have to use every muffler option
  • chassis material cannot be carbon fibre
  • no carbon ceramic brakes

and a few ‘debatable’ rules:

  • weight/power ratio lower than 2 (i.e. 1400kg / 700cv or so, would not be allowed)
  • undertray cannot be set on downforce configuration
  • maybe a limit on rim diameter (20"?)[/quote]

I’m not sure why this is even a discussion. The above rules are fine, except for mufflers and wheels. Production cars should have mufflers, but should not be specified which ones or how many. One muffler (plus cat if applicable) should be sufficient to meet road legal requirements in most places. AFAIK, at least where I live, there are no real rules on how big a wheel can be. I see offroading trucks all over the place which could easily drive right over a Chevy Caprice without even noticing it, and they’re not getting tickets over it. The only rule they must follow is minimum bumper heights cannot exceed X inches above the road surface.

The only debatable ones are P/W and tire compounds. Power/Weight would be good at 2.0. Realistically, it can’t really function on a street above that (and above 1.0 is actually a good argument). Tire compounds are only debatable because drag radials are street legal, at least here in the US. Just don’t have an accident on them, or they will be auto-faulted for the incident (cops don’t really like them much on street cars).

Downforce undertray should not be allowed on production. Limited downforce trays are fine, as many cars use them already…for hypermiling efficiency.

I personally think 98RON (93AKI) should not be allowed, but only because here in the US it is near impossible to find unless you are near a raceway or dragstrip. 95RON (91AKI) is common Premium fuel in the US. The rest of the world is obviously not so stingy with the octane, however. This does not take into consideration Ethanol blended fuels. E85 is still quite hard to find, even in the US, and has an AKI rating of 94-97. At least in the SouthEastern US where I live. Again, Ethanol blends are much more common in other parts of the world…like Brazil.

You could also consider production numbers to determine a production vehicle, although it would be tough right now without a functional tycoon aspect in the game. For racing in the US, it is usually considered a production vehicle if it is produced in numbers greater than 500 units, for SCCA regulations. Anything lower is considered a racing/prototype vehicle. It could be simulated with a production cost aspect, or even a production cost PLUS production units cost (valued at a fixed number per unit), but some companies have deep pockets and a $100,000+ production cost wouldn’t bother them a bit.


#32

Part of the reason is, as you point out later in your post, that some points will always be in contention, not least due to the international nature of this forum and thus the need to compromise.

For example, in pretty much any place in Australia that has a petrol station, and this includes rural, inland, and remote areas, you will be relatively confident of finding 98RON. That being said, there are only a very small handful of cars that would ostensibly demand 98RON (e.g. perhaps the Impreza 22B, which is a rare model in itself). I imagine that the most rarefied of super and hypercars will also pretty much require 98RON too.

Furthermore, semi-slicks are also plenty road legal in Australia but don’t expect insurers or cops to rule in your favour if you have a bingle with them on!

That being said, I guess we have to put a limit somewhere and most of Razyx’s rules are already plenty acceptable for capturing the ‘spirit’ of what should be included. This will be the list I suggest:

[ul][li]Fuel type 95RON max[/li]
[li]No semi-slicks[/li]
[li]No race intake[/li]
[li]No race exhaust[/li]
[li]At least one muffler of any kind[/li]
[li]No downforce undertray[/li]
[li]Minimum ride height 100mm[/li][/ul]
The 100mm comes from my local guidelines, feel free to come forward with your own values as this obviously may vary. I feel there should also be a minimum reliability figure as in the previous ‘production’ board, there were cars with 0.1 reliability, which clearly doesn’t compute.

I’ve not included the limitations about the brake pads as they’re already a regular (and optional) feature on sports cars, notably e.g. Porsche will offer them as an option across most of their range. I’ve also not included the limitation about carbon fiber chassis as a couple of production car companies make cars this way… but the relevance of that in the broader market and thus the appropriateness of this rule is debatable. I would still like to see some kind of class segregation system based on the components a car uses, or even their production costs.

In short, I’m still not sure.


#33

I find these limitations for production cars completely reasonable! 100mm from the factory is really quite low, at 3.9". Cars lower than this will have trouble with parking lots, city streets and even some highways. My car is sitting about 110mm and lowered 2.5" (63mm for anyone who isn’t American), which puts its factory ride height at roughly 175mm, but it’s hardly a sports car from the factory. I just made it into one. :wink:

I also agree on a reliability aspect. Production cars are meant to be driven dailly, or at least regularly, so reliability has to be part of the equation. I completely failed to mention this in my previous post… :blush: Any respectable production vehicle should be able to see 100k miles (160k kilometers) of duty before a major failure occurs. Of course, given the number of manufacturer recalls in recent years, clearly this isn’t a belief of those who make cars. :wink:

As for classes…that gets tough. No matter how you try to divide the cars, you’ll run into somebody (maybe even me!) who disagrees with something. It certainly does make for a more level playing field, however. Good luck with it. :slight_smile:


#34

Interesting knowing more details about ‘markets’ other than the european. Here in Spain, and I guess overall in Europe, there’s no problem finding 98RON. It’s a good way, as any other one, to start with some restriction.

No problem with those rules.

[quote=“strop”][…] I would still like to see some kind of class segregation system based on the components a car uses, or even their production costs.

In short, I’m still not sure.[/quote]
I also would like.
I guess, and as you both have suggested, maybe we should play or include some limits on production units, reliability and, as a daily cars, with service costs…(and some components) to establish the (different) categories.


#35

I don’t know why I can pm you with jpeg or rar file so I will post my time here
K’s Work’s present Noble-PII GT1 Prototype race car





#36

Normally I’d ask for PM, but as all the stats are here and the race category is still open, I’ll put that time up. Good one!


#37

I would PM but mine are taking about 3-4 hours to send so here goes:
To compete with the Ford Supervan, The GRIFFIN CAR-GO! BERWI XRSS (Prototype class if you hadn’t guessed :smiley: )





#38

Could I post the time my 1985 Group B rally hatch gets?


#39

Absolutely! But PM it to me if you could, so the thread doesn’t clutter up.


#40

will you be taking times for prototype group C cars from the 80’s early 90’s?