Survival of the fittest [FINISHED]

Community Challenges & Competitions
161

[quote=“squidhead”]Ok, noted. Next event we’ll have more eco stages, with damage penalizing your consumption. Cool!

You know what? I wasn’t going to do this, I was going to keep quiet and take it, but complaining? Really? Well ok, then, here we go, my turn.

The fuel tank rule has been posted long before the accepting of entries began
The fuel efficiency stage has been announced long before the accepting of the entries began
The exact criteria on which your car would be measured was declared before the accepting of the entries began
And you say this?

No. No you haven’t. You truly really haven’t. What you did was slap bang a car without seeing if it were to make it through the first stage, and then sent it to me. And now you are complaining about frustration? Frustration is when you take your personal time to run a competition for the guys on the forum and they think that wasting your time with pointless entries is just fine. I mean it’s only 9 cars which would not pass the first stage, as in 9 pointless entries that did not have a single fighting chance. HALF of the entries had to be resubmitted and checked against the rules AGAIN, taking my time. Why? Well because such time and effort was put into these cars that some of them did not agree with the 5 rules set for this event. Record breaking? Not going to name names but 4 out of 5 rules were broken by one car. There are 5 simple rules and 1 simple condition of the stage 0. Should I link you to a 4xA4 ruleset for each class of AMWEC just to compare? Insult to injury? I had to manually calculate all of these car’s petrol tanks and their consumption, even those that blatantly failed by people who blatantly did not care enough, and would never pass Stage 0. THIS sux, as in “I’d not host another event for anybody ever again in the future” level sux. So don’t you go complaining and blaming me for a car you’ve barely spent an hour on did not finish stage 0 because you were to lazy to get a calculator out.[/quote]

Interesting…

The eco run was marked as Round 0, which suggests it was for shits and giggles rather than an actual part of the competition, plus you’d said that the LOCAL fuel quality was 91 octane, meaning that should my light-tuned car somehow run out of fuel then I could still compete as my car could source fuel locally. Here in Australia, a very sparsely inhabited continent, there are towns every 200Km so in your 400Km run I could have topped up the tank, easily arriving at the start line, ready to compete in Round 1 (the logical start of a race, :laughing: ). I’m not asking for a re-run, I was providing feedback on the race structure. By all means choose to ignore my personal feelings of frustration but the premise still stands; your eco run was flawed and detracted from the spirit of the competition.

The personal time arguement goes both ways; you spend time running the competition and I spend time complying my entry and submitting it. You spend more time on checking entrants and running the competition than I do on making the car but it is insulting to suggest that I slapped together a shit-box and said “Fuck it, it’ll do”. I make it a point of personal pride to give every competition I enter a decent go AND I enter as many competitions as I can; why? So that more competitions are run and that less well thought out competitions still have entrants to judge and they then can learn from their mistakes and make better competitions. I’m not disputing that I missed the seriousness of your eco run, I’m just saying that your own preamble made it out to be less serious than you subsequently treated it and that it would save everyone a lot of hassle if it didn’t make a re-appearance in the next running of this event.

I apologise for any offense caused by my inclusion of my personal reaction to being excluded before the race started; I’ll more clearly segregate them in the future so that it isn’t construed as blame. I was trying to give constructive feedback and I was unaware that you had so much trouble with other entrants… I truly do believe that, minus the fuel tank rule (or maybe tweak it to allow players to select tank size or points penalties for failure), the next round of this competition will be excellent and I’ll be honoured to be included in the entrants on the start line on that great and glorious day! :sunglasses:

162

This got longer than I expected. TL;DR: I liked the challenge, eco runs are a great equalizer, and I’ve got an idea at the bottom of the post.

For those brave enough to continue into the ramblings of someone working on about 3 hours of sleep and a cup of coffee, feel free to read on.

Personally, I enjoyed the Eco run. For me, it was a bit tense (doing all my own math to convert liters to gallons and MPG to L/100km to find out whether I’d make it) but were I to do it again, I’d simply switch my units.

I thought the Eco run was a great way to stop people throwing purpose-built 700 horsepower turbo-V8 1-mile-per-gallon monsters at this challenge. Wouldn’t have been near as good if everyone could ignore their fuel consumption.

Did I put time and effort into my car? A little. I tried to make the compromise and got off-road-greedy, forgetting for a moment that the car I built would have to handle asphalt as well. I built a twin turbo V8 tuned for fuel efficiency instead of power, making (if I remember correctly) about 300 horsepower. Would I have been upset being knocked out in the eco stage? No. I’d have accepted that I screwed up my math somewhere, or I pulled a stupid by using a turbo V8 when I could have been sensible and gone either Turbo-4 or NA. Was I upset being knocked out in the asphalt stage? Not really. A touch disappointed because I thought I had a great car for Pikes Peak, but I had plenty of time to know about that asphalt stage. I failed to consider that maybe, just maybe, a bit of handling would have been better than my solid axle ass.

As for more eco stages with damage increasing fuel consumption, I’d be all for that, personally. Looking at the numbers between me and Stensen on that little duel we had, if we had more stages on gravel/offroad to beat the cars up, I would have won that duel through reliability. If fuel efficiency could be added into account through some eco stages, it’d take out a lot of the low-reliability-high-consumption competition. Gamble on gas and you may just lose.

I had more fun in this challenge checking the results than I’ve had in a lot of 'em in a while. Scrolling down the results page actually could get my heart racing, hoping to see my little green hatchback somewhere in the good list. Once I got knocked out, yeah, I stopped paying as much attention (after all, it’s less exciting then), but I think this challenge set up a good framework for something more.

If you don’t mind, Squidhead, I’m just gonna list a few of the things I did and didn’t like about this challenge.

Liked:

  • Eco Run Qualifier. This kept power and cars sensible(ish) without enforcing hard power limits, weight or size or displacement limits, or restricting engines. Awesome way to even the field.
  • Events listed in order. This allowed us to build the best all-rounder we could, knowing particular tires would hurt us more than others, but knowing that some things would be needed before others.
  • Damage! We’re out there beating our cars up racing. Of course things are gonna break.
  • Battle Mode! Two cars traveling together go faster. Everyone knows this. Everyone who’s ever drafted a semi down the highway also knows this.
  • Duels. Pitting two cars against one another in a 1v1, winner-takes-all showdown midway through the race.

Things I didn’t like

  • Nothing, really. The one thing I didn’t like was more a personal matter, and that was just the order of the tracks. Even at that, the list was made and agreed to long in advance, so really, this point doesn’t matter.

Personally, I’d love to see another version of this some time down the road. I found it quite enjoyable to participate in, and I think that kinda says something. Very simple, non-complicated rules list, everything laid out open-handed in front of you. If I wanted to, I could have sat there with a calculator and tried to power-math my way through to a victory, or I could do what I did, with spit-ball math for my fuel economy and then hope for the best on the rest.

As for my thoughts on not making it through stage 0… We were told up front everything we’d need to figure it out: How far we’re driving, The speed we were to cruise at, how big our gas tank would be. Some people barely made it (my guess, either luck, or power-math determining they needed exactly this amount of fuel to make it, and not a drop more), others made it with fuel to spare (and make bonfires with…) and others fell short. As stated, I’d love to see eco-runs both damage the cars (you’re driving a long distance at a constant speed, so even if it’s something like 0.1% of damage, it’s something to consider as it’s unavoidable) as well as damage influencing efficiency (because an engine making smoke and a chassis that’s bent up shouldn’t perform better than an engine burning clean and lean and a chassis that’s straight as an arrow). In fact, I like the idea of the eco runs enough that I’d personally want to see one between each of the challenges. Other than a calculator and Automation, nothing else is needed, and could produce very different results.

As for something I’d like to see as a possibility… A night race. I know, I know, we can’t model anything based on track temps, etc., but it’d allow an additional type of race to build around. Build your car without some form of alternate lighting, and you might just find yourself in the dark, struggling to see the track. I suppose it really works best if done as an offroad race. Basically, not having enough light (headlights alone on an off road course shouldn’t be enough) would result in both a time penalty (can’t drive your best when you can’t see) and a damage penalty (you’ll bust up your car more if you can’t see) while having enough light basically makes it any other race.

As for how the compromise works on that, you have to decide between maximum engine cooling (assuming front engine, the grill and front bumper area are the greatest cooling potential) but only street lights, or reduced engine cooling, but off-road lights.

163

The point of the round 0 was to get the people who did not pay any attention and give a serious thought to their build out of it, so I would not have to process 20+ cars in round 1 manually doing a maths exam for a few hours, and only work with cars that have been built to spec. Note how 2 cars actually ran EXACT length of the round 0 on full tank. That is calculation, that shows that they did pay attention, and if you look closer to the results - people who thought more about it and actually played their strategy card well went straight into the final. Everybody who didn’t, including me - did not. Everybody who did not care enough to do simple math got left on the hard shoulder.

Get a stopwatch out and a calculator.

  1. Weight of your car * 0.05
  2. Consumption at 120kph * 40
  3. If the result of 1 is less than result of 2 then your car isn’t going to finish the run.

Help me out here, what am I supposed to think if you did not do this yourself? That you gave your build enough thought? Here’s an approach that worked out with best economy as described by Madrias :

IT WORKED

Anyways, im over it. Race is done, who read the rules and paid attention got to actual racing. Nothing anybody can do about it now.

That is what will happen with 1st run eliminating anybody who did not finish, and every next run just adding penalties to the next race event in case you did not finish

Already ahead of you on this one, mate. Drivability will be a factor both at night and in rain… and in night rain. As well as being a factor on each racing stage to a lesser degree. As in “the easier your car is to handle the more attention you spare for planning out each corner or scanning track for boulders and such”

164

Oh, now I feel like an idiot for having to be the typical American. I spent 5 minutes converting friggin pounds to kilograms, kilograms * 0.05 = liters, liters to gallons, consumption at 70-whatever MPH in gallons over 100 km * 4, made some stupid rounding error, and thought I was going to be nail-bitingly close on fuel. If I’d known it’d be that bloody easy to calculate fuel efficiency using L/100km, I’d have just switched my units.

165

[quote=“Madrias”]

Oh, now I feel like an idiot for having to be the typical American. I spent 5 minutes converting friggin pounds to kilograms, kilograms * 0.05 = liters, liters to gallons, consumption at 70-whatever MPH in gallons over 100 km * 4, made some stupid rounding error, and thought I was going to be nail-bitingly close on fuel. If I’d known it’d be that bloody easy to calculate fuel efficiency using L/100km, I’d have just switched my units.[/quote]

And here we see the wild Madrias facepalming himself out of existence.
I have been Nigel Darwington, for Automationeers: Into The Wild.
I will see you all soon.

166

[quote=“squidhead”]

The point of the round 0 was to get the people who did not pay any attention and give a serious thought to their build out of it, so I would not have to process 20+ cars in round 1 manually doing a maths exam for a few hours, and only work with cars that have been built to spec. Note how 2 cars actually ran EXACT length of the round 0 on full tank. That is calculation, that shows that they did pay attention, and if you look closer to the results - people who thought more about it and actually played their strategy card well went straight into the final. Everybody who didn’t, including me - did not. Everybody who did not care enough to do simple math got left on the hard shoulder.

Get a stopwatch out and a calculator.

  1. Weight of your car * 0.05
  2. Consumption at 120kph * 40
  3. If the result of 1 is less than result of 2 then your car isn’t going to finish the run.

Help me out here, what am I supposed to think if you did not do this yourself? That you gave your build enough thought? Here’s an approach that worked out with best economy as described by Madrias :

IT WORKED[/quote]

And what am I supposed to think about your competition construction skills if YOU can’t make a car that qualifies for your own competition? :open_mouth:

You take a casual swipe at others professionalism yet you’re phoning-in your effort with a non-starter… :frowning:

That being said, your eco round did work well as a crowd thinning tool, so it definitely did it’s job, however I will contend that if you want less entrants then make the rules more complex, rather than having arbitrary and crude host-generated hurdles that serve no purpose other than to exclude contestants.

167

I think you’ll find that my car made it through round 0. I am guessing it means it qualified.

168

@HighOctaneLove: You have a point, but, I do not believe that this is worthy of an argument. I was “Removed” in stage 0, but do you see me complaining, or many of the other contestants? No. Quit your Bitching, and calm the farm.

@Squidhead: Loved the challenge, despite being dropped in Stage 0. Hope you run this again, and I can make a more Fuel Efficient Car. :slight_smile:

169

My bad, I thought you meant yours didn’t get past Round 0 either so I formally retract and apologise for any offense caused. :blush:

170

Yeah, you needed 15 miles per gallon… not gallons per mile :smiley:
I’ll run this again at some point, right now I just want to make some cars, since you really can’t during a competition.

171

I’m not bitching… I thought Squidhead wanted feedback so I gave it. If everyone else provided feedback then maybe we all could benefit from better run competitions (and competitors, in my case). I am only annoyed at being casually backhanded with an incompetence charge when I try to offer help. :frowning:

172

If I may make an additional note here:

Look at the variety we had in the cars that made it into the challenge. We wouldn’t have that variety if we had, say, a fixed 24 MPG requirement. (to pull a random number from my ass while avoiding doing any math or opening Automation. Excuse: I have a headache, and no, it’s not from facepalming myself into oblivion.)

Instead, by making fuel tanks and an eco run, we had (to note the extremes)

Koolkei with his Kei car, the smallest car.
RaduST with the land boat, the biggest car.
AirJordan and Koolkei, who arrived on fumes.
Myself, who had way too much gas left in my tank.

Engines were probably extremely varied between all of us.

Now, if we were told to meet a specific MPG, L/100km, km/l, etc., would we see land boats, turbo-V8’s, and sleek sportscars? Possibly, but we’d see a lot more tiny little things.

Personally, I liked the very open rule set. I don’t think I would have joined if it had a mile long list of restrictions (in fact, I know I wouldn’t have. I looked at this one four times before I realized that the ‘rules’ were very simple, and the ‘suggestions’ were more ‘calculations’ for success.)

For a future run, I’ll definitely keep in mind that I need to pay attention to my tracks a little more. Don’t do a pure off-road dirt-eating-car unless there’s so much dirt in the first half that I can win through sheer durability, and even then, keep it street friendly so I stand half a chance on a paved circuit. I’m not entirely sure the Envy will return (I think it did well enough, but the solid rear axle kinda killed it), but I’m sure I’ll come up with something, and I’ll make sure to switch my units for easier fuel calculations in the future.

173

well this ended on quite a bitter end.

“Excuse: I have a headache, and no, it’s not from facepalming myself into oblivion.”
LIES :stuck_out_tongue:

reliability part really gave me the scare there.
so much so, that i just decided to overpower the reliability rating, which ended up backfiring.

also airjordan ran out of fuel at the start line, my car probably still have like 120meters of range left. :stuck_out_tongue: (40l out of a 40.005l fuel tank, 5ml left on the fuel lines, not the tank.)

anyway, thanks for squidwa… squidhead for hosting this competition :slight_smile: and congrats to airjordan.

174

yeah, for stage 0, i have mixed feelings on it, because it does mean you can be immediately knocked out if your car has not enough weight or not enough efficiency or both (i lost out because the economy was there, the tank was just really tiny from my car being so lightweight, but then again it’s what i get for using the communitasia as my base.
as for the good, i do like seeing it involving a minimum of fuel efficiency to even be allowed to enter the event, because fuel ain’t infinite and nobody wanna pay for your 2MPG car for a week of hard racing

175

The way I saw Stage 0 is that it was no worse than being told, “Hey, your car gets 7.4 MPG, the minimum was 7.5 MPG, you’re not in it.”

Plus, look at the work that had to be done on Squidhead’s end of things. That’s a lot of math. I don’t blame anyone wanting to knock out the less serious competitors who weren’t willing to do a little math of their own. Granted, it eliminated a lot of small cars, but it also eliminated the impractical ones.

As you said, fuel isn’t infinite, and no one wants to pay for the 20 GPM car when everyone else is managing at least 17 MPG.

176

[quote=“koolkei”]well this ended on quite a bitter end.

“Excuse: I have a headache, and no, it’s not from facepalming myself into oblivion.”
LIES :stuck_out_tongue:

reliability part really gave me the scare there.
so much so, that i just decided to overpower the reliability rating, which ended up backfiring.

also airjordan ran out of fuel at the start line, my car probably still have like 120meters of range left. :stuck_out_tongue: (40l out of a 40.005l fuel tank, 5ml left on the fuel lines, not the tank.)

anyway, thanks for squidwa… squidhead for hosting this competition :slight_smile: and congrats to airjordan.[/quote]

Dang, I congratualted AirJordan but didn’t thank Squidhead for running this! :blush:

Thanks bud, it was a lot of fun… :smiley:

…and another lesson in reading (and understanding) the rules fully! :laughing: