I think we need more restrictions regarding tyre to make sure we all run on bicycle like tyres.
I found this table with Bias Ply tyres available for european cars pre 1924. It’s still better than what was available in 1900 but it’s a start (the last 4 columns are Automation parameters):
Tyre Size
Overall Diameter
Inflated Width
Approved
Maximum Load
Revs Per Mile
—
Tyre Diameter
Rim Diameter
Wheel Width
Profile
(inches)
(inches)
Rim Width
(lbs)
(inches)
26 x 3
27.25
3.25
1.75
440
779
690
20
85
105
710 x 90
28.30
3.60
2.00
650
750
720
21
90
105
760 x 90
30.00
3.60
2.00
650
707
760
23
90
100
810 x 90
32.30
3.60
2.00
650
657
820
25
90
105
815 x 105
33.00
4.10
2.45
900
643
840
24
105
110
875 x 105
35.50
4.10
2.45
900
597
900
26
105
115
820 x 120
32.20
4.65
2.64
1225
659
820
23
120
100
880 x 120
34.80
4.65
2.64
1225
610
885
25
120
105
895 x 135
35.00
5.25
3.03
1600
606
890
25
135
95
715 x 115
28.20
4.50
2.44
560
752
715
19
115
100
720 x 120
28.50
4.75
2.44
780
743
725
19
120
100
730 x 130
29.10
5.10
2.44
895
732
740
19
130
100
775 x 145
31.00
5.65
2.64
1120
684
785
19
145
105
30 x 3.5
31.00
3.65
2.00
750
684
785
24
95
90
30 x 3
30.60
3.15
1.75
600
693
775
24
80
105
36 x 4
36.10
4.20
2.50
1000
588
915
28
105
95
37 x 4
37.00
4.10
2.50
1000
573
940
29
105
95
Based on how they look and perform, I think we should ban any of them with a width bigger than 90 (Exept maybe for the two last, they really feel like carriage wheel).
I would personally say that 110/115 should be the upper width width limit. allows for better tuning in auto and gives a more believable shape to the tyre. Also being beholden to a table like that removes much of the creativity that should be expected in this era. it is a era of experimentation after all. Also some larger vehicles would want larger widths to handle the extra weight.
why ban these? offset is very much needed due to those of us who would want to do fully custom 3D builds. Tyre and wheel diameter i can see, unless a body physically cannot go up to era appropriate sizes. Tread width is needed to appropriately simulate the bulge of a vintage crossply tyre. When trying to do this with just tread curve and sidewall curve, the tread width tends to get pulled out of whack and need to be made smaller again with tread width to get that balloon sort of profile. Wheel width can play a similar roll in curtailing the shape of the tyre. I know these all can technically be abused, but banning them outright hurts anyone who wants to make their build as period appropriate as possible.
I understand that it could feel to restrictive but don’t forget that it was the very begining of Bias Ply tyre and the machinery needed to make them doesn’t allow anyone to make their own in a workshop. And unlike an engine, you can’t by stock tires and tune them.
So I think there is two way of seeing things: we have a list of tires produced by suppliers and have to get the best out of it (in my opinion the more realistic one) or we are allow to make our own tires with limitations to stay as true as possibile to what could have existed.
Regarding limitations those are my proposition:
Tyre Width: 90 max
Rim Diameter: 20 to 30
Profile: 95 minimum (Profile limitation may not be necessary)
Starting with bad tires leave more room to simulate the improvement of tire technology as years go by. Otherwise we may be stuck with the same tech for 30 years to catch up with the Automation simulation.
I understand most of what you’re getting at there. However. 90 width is still a low upper limit, even for that far back. 100 or 110 would be better for a limit and are still well within the chart. Having the limit be slightly higher allows for more build flexibility and a chance for people to simulate doing their own tyre development, which isn’t an uncommon thing for brands to do even back then. And on the account of having bad tech for the next few rounds, the width limit goes up roughly 10 mm per decade pre-1950. 1910’s would have 120, 1920’s 130, 1930’s 140 etc. 50s is where we get a big jump in tyre tech with stuff reaching up to 205/215 or so. Progression is there.
I totally understand, maybe we should start by defining the race recurrence to adapt the development to keep stuff interesting.
I imagined doing a race each year, so with a 5 mm upgrade every 2 years, starting at 90, give you 150 mm by 1924 witch is quite close to the chart.
This way you could keep using your car for something like 5 years (so 5 races) without beeing totally outdated and still be able to create new cars with new tech every 2 races to run by its side if that make sens.
Invented in the 1930’s so yes, unrealistic for 1900.
Good point, didn’t think about that. I’ll remove the restriction but make a note that it must be reasonble use / not to game the rules.
I think giving maximums and letting people work within is better than just a list of supplied tyres. What do people think about:
Tyre Width: 100 max (width limits will increase over time)
Rim Diameter: 20 to 30
I haven’t yet determined an exact cadence of progression. I originally didn’t want to hold a race for each year, as it could take too long to ‘progress’ through the decades - unless people were happy with faster submission deadlines and less depth in any results?
Thinking about it, to be honest, I’m probably going to have to run a couple to see what is feasible & how much effort it works out to be & modify depending on the outcomes.
Background:
The challenge begins at the turn of the century, with the launch of the world’s first international racing series - modeled off an actual historic event, run by the eccentric James Gordon Bennett Jr. (owner of the New York Herald).
In 1899, Bennett challenged European automobile clubs to compete for a trophy in an annual race, with the rule that each car club’s entry had to be entirely made in the country it represented. The inaugural race took place in 1900, with a grueling 568 kilometer journey from Paris to Lyon, setting the stage for a new era in competitive motorsport.
Overall:
• Model, Trim, Engine Family, and Variant year = 1946
◦ REMEMBER, these are racing cars and are supposed to be from 1900. Try to be as period correct as you can. Cars that are far too modern will be penalised / disqualified.
• Tech Pool = -15 for everything
• Quality = -10 for everything as default
• Quality points to ‘spend’ on whatever you wish = 10
• Min weight = 600kg
• Max weight = 1200kg
Chassis:
• Solid Coil & Solid Leaf suspension only
Engine:
• ‘Bonus’ Quality for Bottom End = +15 (to get around some limitations in Automation with large engines this old)
• Max engine part stress = 10%
• Fuel = Leaded Regular 92 RON
• Max power must be below redline
Car:
• Front Brake size = 160mm & Front Force = 50% (Closest we can get to rear brakes only)
• Tyres = Cross Ply
• Tyre Width = 100 max
• Rim Diameter = 20 to 30 inches
• ‘Bonus’ Quality for Wheels & Tyres = +0 (to get around some bugs/issues in Automation with -ve quality and such thin tyres)
• Aero parts banned
• 2 Front Seats minimum (Driver and Mechanic)
• Both open & closed wheel bodies allowed (noting that closed wheeled really just means over-fenders in this era)
Advanced Trim:
• Wheels & Tyres - Banned: wheel diameter, tyre diameter
• All other settings allowed within reason & only to ensure correct aesthetics / make logical sense. I reserve the right to penalise or disqualify an entry for abuse of advanced trim.
Race 1 Performance Guide:
Cars of this era varied immensely in both design and performance! Go wild! But also remember that this is really really really early days in motorcar development and racing, so the power output is going to be ridiculously low compared to what is now ‘normal’.
As examples:
The 1900 Panhard that won ran with a 5.3L four cylinder, producing 24HP.
Karl Benz’s son, Eugen Benz, almost entered in 1900 with a 2-cylinder 15HP car (potentially didn’t enter because he realised it wasn’t competitive!).
Alexander Winton, from USA, entered in 1900 with his own car powered by a 3.7L 1-cylinder producing 16HP.
Power massively increased in later years but I’m looking for lower powered cars to start this challenge with…
(the 1902 Napier had a 100HP 11.1L four cylinder, and the Mercedes Simplex that won in 1903 had a 90HP 12.7L OHV four cylinder engine).
REMEMBER: This is a long race, and in these early years, cars were harder to drive and more unreliable, as well as the fact that roads and infrastructure were far more agricultural and less developed. This means that the reliability and drivability stats will be very important if you want a chance at even getting to the end - between 1900 and 1903, only 8 out of 26 cars managed to finish!
Submission Details:
Submission Deadline: Saturday, 8 February 2025 at 00:00:00 UTC Time Submission Name: EDMR – [year in YYYY format] – [forum username] – [Car name etc]
(Current year = 1900) Submission Extras: Please also submit -
A photo of your car entry (Think action shot, promotional material, news article, etc - not an advertisement, as these are racing cars).
A brief description of both your manufacturer and your car entry, that includes:
*Manufacturer Name:
*Country of Origin:
*Foundation History (how it all started):
*Founder’s Name(s):
*Anything unique or notable about the company:
*Car Name:
*Anything unique or notable about the car:
Ah hmm okay cheers, might need to tweak a bit more, otherwise will be difficult to get accurate enough figures maybe? I’ll test and update
EDIT: obviously reduces power a bit, but everything still seems feasible.
I have been having issues with traction in BeamNG exports however, so i’ll keep chasing that down to see if I can figure out how to resolve before officially starting the challenge.
In actuality the roots style blower is dated back all the way to around 1860 where it was used for ventilation in mineshafts. It was just never put on an automobile engine until i believe 1921. So in effect the blower actually predates the automobile in its entirety but i completely understand the reasoning just though id thow out what i think to be a neat little fact
Submissions for Race 1 are open!