Hello,
I don´t know if it is only me but I get serious handling problems when trying to build a car based on the 1946Conv/Coupe aka Porsche 356 body.
When choosing any rear or mid engine position, I get tremendous uncontrollable oversteer when exporting the car to BeamNG. No matter what I try, the car stays undrivable.
This is the only car body which gave me problems like this, am I the only one or is someone else having these issues aswell?
Can you share your car so some one could take a look maybe? or pictures of your tuning?
Otherwise, it is like going to the doctor and just saying “hey Mr. Doctor, I have a headache” and expect the doctor to figure it out what is happening…
I have the feeling that your steering curve in automation doesnt look particularly good, but its best if you post the car files here. Failing that post screenshots of the tires and aero tabs.
Ok there we go:
This is just a random setup for this body but it does not matter what changes I do, I cannot make it drivable.
I cannot give the rear any more grip (and more brakes). It always tends to do snap oversteer.
I try to build it for BeamNG.
Mistkarre123 - Trim 4.car (9.7 KB)
Right you see these curves, currently at the end the curve upwards. Thats why your car is oversteering.
If you want it to be more controllable, adjust suspension settings to make them look like this. You were actually pretty close to managing to get a stable car. Of course, since the car is and old 1952 design and is also rear engined, you cant fully get rid of its over steering nature, thats just how rear/mid rear engine cars perform in real life, they have a nasty tendency to oversteer. But by making sure that the steering graphs look like this, you can mitigate the effects of this.
As dorito said, your random tune was faily good. This is a few things I noticed:
https://i.imgur.com/osiLfpr.png
Your original tire size was almost spot on, just one click away from not oversteer. I reduced the wheel size by a bit.
https://i.imgur.com/UnC3WSy.png
That is ONE way or doing it, other one is via the suspension tuning.
Based on your original suspension tune, there was one or two click for the front spring to get it to understeer, look below:
https://i.imgur.com/QgpCDnM.png
But the bump graph looked a bit wonky, so I played a bit with springs, dampers and sway bars.
For quick tune, I selected the test suspension with no aditional cargo (the one with the flag) and set the front springs to around 2hz, and the rear ones to around 2.2hz.
Then I got rid of the rear sway bar, which corrected the steering behaviour and I increased the front sway bar, then I just played with the dampers a bit, until the matched up on the bump graphic.
https://i.imgur.com/QdUaqwp.png
Brakes are always bad in early cars, the best I did was this:
https://i.imgur.com/0uqGUub.png
Equal (max) size rear and front, I adjusted the brake bias to 50/50 and then I decresed the pad type until the brake lines where barely above the grip lines. I made sure the front wheels lock first.
Here is the car with the changes I made. Mistkarre123 - test - Test TUNE.car (9.7 KB)
That’s pretty good, but you made a really critical mistake if you took that car and drove it in BeamNG; setting brake bias to 50/50 makes any pre-ABS car virtually undriveable. Even though Automation sportiness/driveability scores would seem to indicate otherwise, the 50/50 brake distribution will virtually guarantee the car will lock the rear wheels before the fronts, which will cause you to swap ends under any hard braking event.
It’s not ideal in terms of minmax Automation performance, but setting the rear brake size/bias so that the brake force is always slightly less than the rear tire grip will make for a much easier car to drive.
It is actually not 50/50, as it is like a click or two, more like 50.8 - 49.2, that’s what I said I made sure the front wheels lock first, I could probably changed it to around 52/48 - 55/45. But you’re right, front should lock first for better drivability.
Thanks for taking the time and looking into this.
I dont know if you have tested your tune in BeamNG. The problem is somewhat not the Automation stats, but the actual handling in BeamNG. The car is still pretty much undrivable. In long corners, the rear comes out and completely spins the car. It is not possible to go through a corner with decent speed without spinning out.
I am not sure if this can even be fixed in BeamNG, maybe the Automation–>BeamNG handling is somewhat broken for this car body. I tried many things, and you Tune aswell, gets it a little bit better, but still barely drivable…
Nah the underlying issues is really down to your choice in car design. Going for a rear engine car you’re bound to have oversteer. Its just how it works, rear engine, mid rear engine, they all have a tendency to oversteer. Add to this the fact that its the 50s where tech isnt that advanced and that your engine is pretty powerful and that all adds up.
I admit I didn’t try for lack of time, I might test it this weekend… That said, the tune I selected, as you can see in the graphs is very sporty. I don’t know if you follow that series of videos, but killrob here https://youtu.be/YnTFvrbbTm4 at 30:25 addresses the issue. That sporty level in the steering graph means is neutral handing during turns without throttle, once you apply throttle it will tend to oversteer, and you will have to modulate the use of the throttle during cornering. One way to try to fix that is making the car to understeer more, with the tune I had just probably one or 2 clicks less front tire, until the drivability in the graph is in 100%, or very close to it.
That said, and this is something that came in other thread as well, you need to know how to handle the car, know when to give full throttle, learn to don’t lock the wheels, don’t throttle in middle of the corner when the car isn’t fully straight and so on. That is specially important in pre ABS and pre-traction aids cars, and as dorito said, the car by design is prone to oversteer. I know it might be frustrating (I pretty much only design cars without traction aids) but I like the hability to corner when cars are set that way, even if I end up oversteering for too much throttle. If you don’t have wheel and pedals, try save some money, they also help to drive better.
TL;DR that tune is very sporty, will oversteer if you throttle it too much during cornering (plus is the behavior by design of the car with all that weight in the rear) . To fix that reduce the front tire a bit and try to hit 100% drivability or close to it (might as well play with camber). Also try to reduce the rear brake force with the brake bias slider if you notice the rear unsettles during braking.
So, after some suspension tuning, and choosing mid-transverse instead of mid-longitunal, I came to these 2 curves.
I have to admit, I didnt notice the fast steering curve before and only worked with the slow steering one. Thanks for enlighten me.
When trying the car in BeamNG it got much better. Still it tends to snap oversteer during corners which it should not do according to those graphs…
Any idea? I will continue trying
I didn’t find it to be so. Just out of curiosity, I unplugged my wheel and tried it on a twin-stick controller- much more difficult, there’s a learning curve, and I doubt my laps done this way would ever be as fast or consistent. But I was still able to get clean laps. I was more bothered by understeer in that tune (my own fault, when I didn’t leave myself enough speed in a corner to shift weight to the front on entry…) That thing is a rocket for a '52. Actually, scratch that qualifier, it’s just plain fast. Fast is always a bit more challenging. You can tune around the laws of physics to some extent, and drive around them, but you can’t make them go away. It’s still a short wheelbase car with 70% of the weight on the rear.
If I may offer some humble advice:
Forget everything you learned about driving in NFS.
I think you’re probably overdriving it. Use small, gentle inputs. Step on the throttle like an egg, the brakes like a kumquat. Gently squeeze, don’t stomp or smash. Or, Imagine a cup of water in the cupholder that is nearly full, and Dad will cane you if you spill a drop.
Try a slow in, fast out approach. Get most of your braking and downshifting done in a straight line. Rev-matching your downshifts will upset the chassis less. Keep it smooth.
At the risk of seeming condescending or patronizing, a quick guide to the Automation test track in this thing:
Down to 1st before you enter the tight corners: Banhammerhead, the Esses, the Chicane, Adam’s Apex. These are tricky, too slow and the front washes out. Get your braking done, let the chassis settle, use a bit of engine braking to shift weight forward. More practice and I think a bit of trail braking might help, but I’m not good enough to do it consistently.
Throttle back to neutral and let the chassis settle for Pomm’s Sickle and the Slingshot. You can’t enter the slingshot on the throttle in this car (leastways, I can’t), but I didn’t need to brake -just let the chassis settle. Be careful not to shift too much weight forward- it will oversteer. Neutral. You can roll back into the throttle (gently!) if it’s rotating too much. I start feeding it after the nose tucks in.
Bavarian bend is the trickiest corner for me. Quick spot of brakes and down into third, bring it to the inside. Another gentle squeeze of the brakes and 2nd if you feel comfortable heel and toeing (just before it tightens), otherwise hold off on the shift until you’re on your way out.
Again, car setup is particular to driving style- personally, I feel that more understeer would unbalance the chassis even more (and compromise performance) but you can always dial more in. Suggestions above are good and valid. You could also take more roll stiffness out of the rear. Don’t feel tied to the 10% stiffer rear spring frequency- this suggestion is for optimum comfort. You can fudge a bit if comfort is not your primary aim, just beware that widely disparate rates will do funny things on big bumps at high speeds (for example, East Coast Highway bridges). If what you want is a 1400cc engine, use that and not a downsized 1600 to save weight at the rear. Increasing overall weight by using steel panels or a spaceframe will reduce the imbalance, as will body morphs. If you’re not using Beam’s driver assists, you might try that.
Good Luck!
edit to add: just saw your post, Murokmato. negative camber at the rear. less negative camber at the front. Less antiroll bar at the rear. Push that “D” circle (driveability) down between the red and blue lines if you can. For most cars at this power to weight ratio, I like the “S” circle just below the blue line. Preferences vary. I’ve been tuning cars by cloning a few variants, making small changes to each, then exporting them to beam and driving them back to back to see if I’m headed in the right direction.
edit 2: Softer overall suspension settings and higher ride height will slow the polar moment and make the car feel less “snappy”, giving you more warning of the onset of oversteer, and easier correction
Yes I am actually driving with a gamepad but I am highly used to it. I also have a steering wheel but atm I can´t use it for space reasons…
I will try for no to make it rather understeery in Automation and see how it turns out in BeamNG. It got better but I still have a long way for it to be good…
Update: handling seems to be fine for speeds up to 100kph.
When driving over 100kph/60mph, the car still rapidly oversteers even in wide corners, also without touching the throttle. There is no way to correct that oversteer, it just goes.
This oversteer is not caused by me giving too much throttle, it also happens without. The Automation curves suggest a high understeer when going fast but in BeamNG the exact opposite is the case…
Well, I downloaded the car with the tune I uploaded and it turns out it was pretty drivabable, even for me, an unskilled driver. Here’s the video. One thing to notice, I did run a lap before recording and I got it to oversteer on the slingshot (that’s why the brakes are already heated), which is why you see me slowing to around 150km/h before entering it, although I feel I could probably push it at 160ish km/h maybe. Overall it was very drivable IMO and quite enjoyable. And very quick for 1952 for sure. DISCLAIMER: I drive like a grandma.
I guess you’re lacking the feel and feedback you get on a wheel, right before losing traction or right before oversteer, and probably you’re really really pushing it.
That is interesting to see. I have to say that looks like very well controlled lap.
Thing is: Since this is going to be a race/sports car, I want it to be driven on the limit for most of the time. The fastest it can go. Yes you are right, I am pushing the car far more on my testlaps. But thats the whole point of it.
I suppose I could do better with a racing wheel than with the gamepad, still this should be doable since I can race all other BeamNG (and Automation export) cars with my gamepad on the edge withouth real problems.
The first thing you have to do that is find and accept where the limit is.
And in a powerful rear wheel drive, rear engined car from 1952, that’s always going to be situated way before full throttle through everything.
I think I know what you mean, but for a early 50s car I think there’s not much where you can push it, especially with that design. Automation cars aren’t that good to drive to the extreme as beam cars, unless you go bonkers with the setup, like tons of power, AWD and decent aero 
(in my experience at least)
Here’s a few laps, definitely not well controlled, lol. On the other hand, I am definitely pushing and overdriving it a bit. I ran just two warmup laps before I shot this, so I’m still feeling it out.
