While this is absolutely true, huge engines come at the price of high prices and heavier weight, so I think it self balances out.
I tried to clarify it a bit more and separated the rules for the homologated production model and the race car a bit bitter.
Wider tires for the race car are fine for all groups, I added this to the lists. Of course, they must still remain within the limits for their engine capacity.
I will add aero rules later. Aero will be allowed, but probably restricted (number of fixtures, max. downforce).
What’s the rule for car numbers?
EDit: What kind of reliability would be considered…hazardous to our health?
Group 3 - 1999 - 2.14 - 1022.9
I don’t see an explicit ban on cars over 3 litres, but all the classes have capacity limits below 3 litres, which didn’t exist IRL. Clarification please?
For group 1, can we be allowed to change the aero sliders? Changing the suspension sliders of my race car changes the aero weight, making it illegal, despite the homolgation production car having legal aero. I would imagine this occurs in group 3 as well.
Question. Are fuel system and rev limiter changes forbidden in all classes? As far as I’ve read, Group 2 and 4 don’t say anything about them, and by default Group 1 and 3 also seem to forbid tuning them. Are they a no-go?
We’ll talk about car numbers once the entries are open.
Regarding reliability: I will publish more information on that soon.
I counted entries for the 1977+ VLN races and there have been the somewhat open classes with 2000+ (yes, two thousand) cc - but there have been almost no entries.
For the 24h races, while the official rules are nowhere to be found, there just are no cars above 3 liters.
in 1970, the biggest car in the top 10 was the only one in the 3000 cc class (2300cc Ford Capri) (they did not distinguish between Group 1-4; it is possible that some Groups were not allowed at all). I don’t have complete information about the available classes. In the top 10, these classes have been present (Source (in German)):
- 1600 cc
- 2000 cc
- 3000 cc
in 1971, the open class was 2500+ cc (they did not distinguish between Group 1-4; it is possible that some Groups were not allowed at all), with at least 2 entries, as a BMW 2800 CS and a Ford Capri RS 2600 got into the top 10. Available classes (Source (in German)):
- 1000 cc
- 1150 cc
- 1300 cc
- 1600 cc
- 2000 cc
- 2500 cc
- 2500 cc +
in 1972, they had these classes (no information about which Groups allowed, Source (in German)):
- Div. 1: 1000/1300 ccm
- Div. 2: 1600/2000 ccm
- Div. 3: +2000 ccm
So with this data in mind, it is hard to make a decision. I can open it up and create more classes. I can remove a few of the smaller classes. I can remove Group 2 and Group 4 (this would probably also be realistic, as the cars don’t seem to have been heavily modified).
Photos from 1971: http://www.pro-steilstrecke.de/24h/nuerburgring_24_stunden_rennen_1971.php (thanks to “sh” from Discord)
Fair point, I didn’t have this issue in mind. Though aero was not much of a focus back in the day, I probably have to open up the aero sliders for all classes. -> added to the rules.
How do rev limiters in carburetted cars work btw? Is there a rev limiter in real life at all? I think it would be possible to open it up for group 2 and 4.
Edit: added first information about car part reliability, driver errors, repairs, etc.
Sorry to be a pain, but I will join in with everyone else in saying that the weight limits are wayyyy off. Every single test car I’ve made so far is at least 100 kilos under.
EDIT: I’m not at my computer rn, but I’ll post the specs of the cars tomorrow.
Yeah, I know. That will be the biggest change coming. I am currently collecting data from real-world homologation sheets, so an update to the rules will probably come tomorrow.
Having messed around with this some, I think Group 3 needs a pretty comprehensive rework of the demographics allowed. In 1970 you can make some pretty ludicrous cars - mostly mid-engined - that still score disproportionately high in the Sport demographic. I have one test build on a vanilla body that has a suggested price of almost $400k, yet still scores comfortably over 120 in Sport. Granted, a lot of that comes from the +13 quality Advanced 60s safety it needed to be even close to making weight, but still…
Also, perhaps a loosening of brake rules would be in order? I mean, changing brake pads is a pretty easy thing to do in a real car and is often among the first things an amateur racer will change, regardless of what kind of car they drive. Also, in the two prepared categories, it wouldn’t be a huge stretch to imagine someone putting a disc-brake conversion on a car that has drums on one or more axles. It wouldn’t be too hard to keep that under control too, since it was all but unheard of to have wheels diameters larger than 15 inches in that era…
In addition being allowed to change the tire widths and compound, and the suspension will almost always result in needing at least better brake pads than the road version would need.
are other players allowed to use third party company cars as entries?
as in: player a gets a car from player b, tunes it and enters that
is player b allowed to enter seperately?
remove or severely relax the weight rules, make them reasonable and simple to work with.
Barring regulation changes, I’ve got a potential Group 2 entrant of 1820cc at 100% weight allowance with a standard interior on 15" rims using rear drums.
The car it’s based on is 110+ Sport in Fruinia @ 85% affordability.
You may use the same homologated car and then tune and submit the race car on your own.
Brake pads are now open for all.
Issue noted, will take a look.
Sorry for double post, but:
- revised Group 3/4 demographics
- added upper limits for engine/car PU/ET (150 for all) to eliminate major exploits
- revised/simplified weight formulas (in general lower weight possible now)
- revised capacity classes (including addition of open classes for Group 2 and 4)
Please check if this works better now.
EDIT: Changed fuel tank size calculations, now based on engine capacity. Seems to fit cars from real-world homologation well (although there are always exceptions).
Is the homologation car supposed to be 1970, or just the final submitted racing version?
EDIT: And… what about Q+ limits? I’ve got a LOT of room to play with.
The homologation version can be from 1960-1970. I made this more clear now in the general rules section.