DEEP as* discussion and sh*t

So first of all, I’ve lived in Sweden, Denmark, and Norway. I can’t speak much for Finland, but if I say something that’s wrong, feel free to chime in. So here’s the situation. Denmark is small and doesn’t feel like their society could integrate more refugees, nor could their infrastructure and organizations support it. Norway is the one country I should be the most familiar with, but for some reason, they barely have taken in anyone and I have no idea why.

So a little bit of history. The Scandinavian countries all entered an agreement in 1952 to open to immigration, establishing a common labour market and free movement and so opened their borders to migrants so that the economy could grow, so that their workforce would gain more strength. That was literally it, the countries had no other intention than to ride the wave of immigrants leaving central Europe in the aftermath of WW2 to bolster the growth of their own economies. Sweden really benefited from this. Finland grew quite a bit too but was never really interested in becoming an international player in economics and politics as much as Sweden was.

I lived in Gothenburg when in Sweden and in Oslo when in Norway. Both cities have sizeable populations of immigrants. Oslo is the easy one so I’ll get it out of the way first. The demographic across Norway is mainly comprised of Poles. There are tons and tons of Poles over there, and they are generally known for being hardworking, honest people (if I were to go more into detail then it would get far too drawn out). Around the 5 largest cities there is a larger concentration of African, Middle Eastern and Sri Lankan refugees. I never ever heard of conflict as a result of these people. Most of it stemmed from stupid teenagers doing foolhardy idiotic things while blazed. In fact, the old industrial part of Oslo, the geographically larger part, Gamle Oslo, is filled with immigrants. Is the standard of life lower there? Yes. Is there drug dealing etc? Yes. Actual violence and crime? Very little. And you’ve to realize this is in a country where policemen don’t (can’t) even carry guns.

Gothenburg also has a massive population of migrants. All of the eastern far side of the city as well as the northern island is just them, majority Somalians. In the two years I lived there things really started to change, and this is during the time the Syrian war was on, the Sudan conflicts between South Sudan and Sudan proper, and ISIS stuff started hotting up. Within a year of coming there, Sweden began taking in a load of refugees. And interesting things happened. This place in the city, Järntorget, became a hub for dealing illegal weapons. The gang shootings and stabbings in the north island became more and more frequent. By the time I left at the end of the following summer, every time you went into the city center there were policemen frickin everywhere. EVERYWHERE. One of our family friends tells us that they’re too scared to continue living there in the north island, sending out their kids to school alone every day because there was an event where two kids died in the crossfire of a gang shootout about 3km from their place.

And I just want to pause to make a point. I too have been an immigrant almost my entire life. It doesn’t make sense, and it’s unjust to generalize immigrants, or Muslims, or refugees. It’s understandable to be wary of something that you’re unfamiliar with.

Now to continue with Gothenburg. A local university did a study and found that the more divided society seems, the more segregation people feel, the less productive they are. Especially if they are living in a neighborhood with an average low income, they lose motivation to try. This is a point many Swedes now are quick to bring out. We want to change our immigration laws because they’re coming in and sucking up tax money without contributing to the economy. This, sadly, is not false. It’s all gone a bit pear shaped for Sweden and people are getting angry about it.

The unfortunate fact of reality is that these refugees already come from countries that are vastly different to the backgrounds of the places they move to. The most noticed incomers are the loud obnoxious ones who refuse to fit in, who refuse to appreciate a new lease on life, who have no respect for the country. The matter of fact is that in these so called Muslim countries, religion is being used as a smokescreen for nurturing blind hatred and depriving people of a proper upbringing where they are taught values. They are putting up a bad image for immigrants, for their own race and for their own religion.

So I realize I’m rambling on at this point and the thread has moved on considerably, but I just wanted to bring in a different angle, and some anecdotes.

There will always be a someone with malintent but you can’t just deny people the chance to a new life based on some crippling fear of uncertainty. You know what that is? That’s plain cowardice.

There’s more to it of course, on a countrywide scale, getting people to be good is no easy task. But nothing is easy. I’m not going to pretend that you should let any and every person in with no regard to the safety and well-being of those already in the country. If you cannot culture people then how is your country even coming along? You’ve got to instill respect, honesty, kindness… I could go on listing values, but what I’m trying to get at is that values are the backbone to everything. Keep the people who are genuinely grateful to have been given a new life and train them, I am sure they will not mind.

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Thanks for the overview, it does shed some light on the situation. And I too share these sentiments.

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When you mentioned about people who refuse to fit in, I have to say I really appreciate the things these migrants do in Finland.

While they’re given a bad rep and all that (and of course there are bad people as well but you can’t make umbrella statements) I feel like we’ve gotten a positive part of the whole crisis.

The reason I say this is because nearly if not all of these people have or are learning Finnish. One of the hardest to learn languages in the world according to some sources. They know it pretty well in fact. That is very easy to appreciate for me when I know some of my half Russian friends have parents that still don’t know Finnish and they’ve lived here up to 20 years.

There was even a news report on that (even though the news makes negative news about everything which by the way is mainly because older people are the biggest consumer of traditional news) refugees have filled up schools to learn Finnish.

When we had restaurant day (a day for anyone to start a restaurant) in my city the refugee centre started a soup kitchen. Of course a bunch of people complained about this, but the people worse off certainly appreciated it.

By what I’ve understood there’s a general image that these refugees are young men who want free money and use that to go to the gym and buy iPhones, but while some do that that’s just those people being flashy. It’s not like they buy houses and cars and expensive jewellery. That’s just a young people thing in general, caring about your image.

I get that it’s not a nice concept that someone might be leeching off your tax money but that’s a problem with the system frankly than anything, and that has always been a problem with alcoholics leeching off it, it’s not a thing the crisis has brought.

A lot of them are just living similiar lives to how “bottom starters” live here anyways. So I definitely feel like out of what I’ve heard that we’ve really gotten the better deal out of the whole situation.

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Nah, I hate Fallout. Tried the 3rd one, and found it absolutely awful; especially with the shooting mechanics. New Vegas bored me into submission even though the shooting was a bit better.

Eh, nukes aren’t actually that powerful. (Though supposedly the new RS-28 will have a 50Mt yield spread over 24 hypersonic gliders. Sexy.) Drop about a couple of those on key locations across the middle east, and Earf will take it like a champ. It’ll be clean to breathe in a week or two. There’s basically no (proven harmful) radioactive fallout after 11 days, IIRC.

I think the whole nuclear winter bit is a myth… or at least it’ll take all the nukes that the world has to get close to it.

As for Mutually Assured Destruction… as far as I know, that is only a possibility in an altercation between the USA and the CIS; and I sincerely hope the world has enough sense to never allow it to come to that. I don’t know what procedures the US has for that “shit hits the fan” moment… but I know Russia’s protocol. Unlike most countries, a large portion of Russia’s nuclear missiles are carried by heavy trucks that constantly drive across the CIS’ wilderness. If half of Russia’s armament is destroyed, the remaining half are sent an automatic launch command. I don’t know the specifics of how or what the guidance is. At least that’s the way it used to be… I don’t know if that still stands true.

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Since I don’t actually know much about nukes, I’m going to switch back to something that may interest you:

Read the whole article before you comment, it takes a while to get to the meat of it (News.com is like that: sensation first, substance later, and often optional).

Oh man… nukes are cool. NATO doesn’t call the R-36 “Satan” and the RS-28 “Satan II” for shits and giggles. Then there’s my favorite Topol (“Poplar”), mostly because of their launch vehicles; either built by MAZ or MZKT.
MZKT-79221 = Sexy

Dat Steering;


You mean to tell me… there’s a news station/channel/group that doesn’t work like that? :grin:

Anyway, I can’t really say I’m surprised by that article… you expect most people to publicly support something like that? Of course not… even if they might secretly not oppose it.
How often have we heard public statements about one group denouncing an attack made upon another group that they’ve been hating the guts of for eternity? It’s just a form of sheding liability for the action of someone who may be tied to them, so they can’t be labeled as responsible or contributing to what happened.

That and beating is only one form of abuse, and often not the most popular one. I don’t think anyone was making the claim that all Muslim men beat the living shit out of their wives. They don’t… but keeping her wrapped up with just an eye slit left and in a constant state of pregnancy isn’t exactly good treatment either. (And yes, I realize that not all do that either.)

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Along with your steadfast trend of negativity, this makes you sound like you actively subscribe to the premise that groups are inherently hostile to other groups. And by inherently I mean tantamount to arguing, in this case, grouped by ethnicity. The corollary of which is to say you don’t believe that this hostility can be sufficiently reframed to transcend ethnic lines in the interest of common human values.

I would elaborate further on why what I linked to exemplifies a particularly interesting juncture in our cultural discourse, except first I’d need you to confirm or deny my above assertion, because if what I said is correct, then I’m wasting my time.

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While I do have a few mixed opinions, I’ll lean towards saying yes, I’ll confirm your assertion.
I feel that humans are indeed inherently hostile to each other… but it isn’t always based upon ethnicity. I feel that hostility towards one gender is practically assured, for example.

I wouldn’t say you’re wasting your time though… we’re just having a discussion here… no hard feelings.
That said though, I won’t be able to reply until the next day. I haven’t slept and I need to.

I don’t have any hard feelings either. “Wasting my time” here is literal: it’s about assessing the scope for progress as well as the grounds of discussion, and everything comes with an opportunity cost as I’ve enough going on that if I choose to do one thing there are a number of tangible other options that I sacrifice, so I have to think about whether my investment is likely to see any returns :stuck_out_tongue:

Why does this remind me of reading Lord of the Flies back in 8th grade…

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There’s many ways in which that one line can be read, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with the truth (or usefulness) of many of them.

But it takes a lot of time and effort to tease out, why do you think so many people end up going with oversimplified axioms? :joy:

In that case, I guess let’s leave that topic where it is. In the end, I don’t really believe much can be changed on a global or even national scale by mere civilians… so not much point in discussing it.

On one hand I disagree, on the other hand, I understand why you feel this way. On the third hand I also need to sleep, because no good conversations were truly had when everybody involved was about to pass out!

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I concur with your third hand. :laughing:

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