Hi There
I know that we decided to simplify the transmissions and diff ratio’s - but is that going to stay simplified for the final release or is it only whilst we are in beta?
It just seems odd that we have so much accuracy in most things but when we get to transmissions and differentials we don’t have standard gear ratio’s.
I mean will we be able to change from 3:73 diff’s to 4:11??
We won’t have it any more complex than it already is in the final game 
But we’re happy to hear why you think this would be a good gamplay mechanic and why it makes the game better for the average player.
That might be a basic design problem. Making the game just for the “average” player.
Maybe have a [basic] and an [advanced] setting in the different tabs. Player gets to choose.
The final drive/diff (4.11, 3.31, 3.55 ect) is represented by the top speed slider, this is important as the gearboxes in game are bespoke to each car, and not produced separately, so what would be the point of making fixed final gear ratios? The realism for this is same as the camshaft system, advanced enough to get the point across without needing a manual. The gear box as it stands is fine by me.
[quote=“RobtheFiend”]That might be a basic design problem. Making the game just for the “average” player.
Maybe have a [basic] and an [advanced] setting in the different tabs. Player gets to choose.[/quote]
On the surface I agree that looks good, but it completely ignores all realities of game develokpment. Making both options does make all the rest of the game worse if you have: a) limited financial resources and b) limited time.
Both a) and b) are true in every game development project, so the question is “Does it add so much more value that we can live with it making the rest of the game worse?”. Considering how little gameplay value it adds, our clear answer to that is NO.
Don’t forget that we HAD a complete gearbox designer with ratios and final drive, etc. and testers hated it because it was super clunky. No way we invest any time into something that doesn’t play well.
What I was picturing was that the box I have highlighted in Red would go somewhere between spacing and differentials (around where the arrow goes) and in that box would be X+1 other text boxes (X being the number of ratios selected) showing what ratio’s have been chosen by the sliders, If you want to leave it there, ok but if you want to tweak it you can enter your own figures in the boxes to override the defaults chosen by the sliders.
(and yes, my paint skills are terrible! 
)
Looks okay for 5 or even 6 gears… how about 9? You don’t address any of my points either, so what point do you want to make, exactly?
I wasn’t meaning to avoid your questions, I just didn’t think I would be the best person to comment on it. But I’ll give it a go.
Yes, it would be a design challenge to figure out the best way to put in more that about 6 gears. Maybe 2 columns with 5 text boxes in each for the gear ratios and one below that for the diff ratio would solve that. That would remove another column however but that could be resolved by combining the 2 sliders for top speed and spacing into one column or reducing some of the extra space in the differentials and gearbox selectors. Maybe there is another - better solution. Either way, I don’t think its too hard to get space for them on the current page. I’ll have a go at mocking something up to see how it could fit together.
The time to implement should not be that much at all as the ratios should be there already. Looking in the car trim files there is
– Table: {8}
{
“TargetTopSpeedFraction”]=0.83,
“DiffRatio”]=3.36,
“Option”]={42},
“TargetTopSpeed”]=210.93550674103,
“PowerDistribution”]=0,
“Ratios”]={43},
“RatioSpacing”]=0.5,
“DriveType”]={44},
“Type”]={45},
“Differential”]={46},
},
It would seem that this car would have the diff ratio as 3.36 so this number could be displayed in the diff ratio text box. As for the other gears, they may need to be calculated. I’m not sure what “Ratios”]={43} actually means to know what the easiest way of converting that into real world values would be. They seem to be evenly divided by the number of gears selected so the starting slider values should not be that hard to populate form the already calculated values either. Maybe multiplying them or dividing them by a factor to take them from game numbers to real world numbers but still not months of coding. So the space issues and coding time issues don’t seem to be that big.
So I guess it comes down to the why. Why do it?
Looking back to nialloftara’s point about the camshaft system is pretty spot on. Most car enthusiasts wouldn’t know what the real differences is between camshaft grinds so a slider on that is perfectly fine. It removes that complexity but still keeps the essence in the game.
However gear ratios are known about by the vast majority of the car community - it is even a standard specification shown by most car manufacturers in their basic specification charts.
Attached is the specifications of the MB 350SL from the 1970’s. tire sizes, compression ratio, number of gears, fuel tank size (something else that we don’t have - yet) - all are standard advertised specifications for the vehicle.
And that’s kind of the point. The absence of such a basic thing as gear ratios is obvious in it’s absence. Its not really that adding them will add to the game, more that not adding them subtracts from a game that is otherwise the most accurate automotive simulator ever attempted. Its like making a luxury car and then only giving it three wheels. The fourth wheel might not be necessary, but its absence is noticed
But the differential is just the final drive ratio, which is a factor in top speed. you want to add something that’s already represented in game.
I must weigh in on this - to me it’s almost game breaking to not be able to have the gear ratios in there, at very least the final drive ratio.
I have a very hard time using my imagination in trying to think what the car would be like to drive, like to own, to sell, etc., when I think of the final drive ratio being “42” instead of 2.08:1. I could live without knowing the gear ratios for each individual gear, only if I absolutely had to, but not being able to actually know what my rear gear is, even if it’s a ratio that no company has ever sold before, DEFINITELY takes me out of the game and makes me remember that I’m just fiddling with sliders.
I am also in the camp that would prefer to see the full cam specs, I’d very much prefer setting the LSA and duration myself, not to mention getting to decide between mech/hyd lifters, etc., but I can pretend I buy that “it’s better if it’s simplified” argument a lot easier than this one for the gears.
My 2 cents, for what it’s worth - Hell, I’d buy the “Advanced User” DLC/Mod if you even had to go that route or something.
EDIT: For the UI change, by the way, does it have to be it’s own window? Why not just make it when I mouse over the final gear slider, then little window floats around that says an actual ratio, or something like that?
For me, it seems that you are just incapable of learning. The final drive on real cars has exactly the same function that the top speed slider does in the game, it is a multiplier ratio. And the spacing being just a slider to determine if you have long or short gears works fine, most cars have even gear ratios anyway.
I too would love the game to be extra-realistic, but I can see why it can’t be. The devs live off the money this game makes, they can’t make it suitable only to an even smaller audience, who would love all the detail possible. Another issue is time. Do you want this feature which is already basically covered to be made more complex, or do you want the actual game to be finished?
That’s kind of the point. The slider is the diff ratio so simply displaying what the multiplier is wouldn’t be that much more coding. if the coding time is the real issue, this would be by far the easiest and quickest method to resolve this part of the issue (as the diff ratios are calculated internally anyway, as there is a field in the model files that contains it.)
so when you slide the top speed slider up and down, it updates both the top speed text box and the diff ratio (multiplier) text box.
Spot on. I want to correct the game so it is using the industry standard terminology for this item instead of leaving it hidden.
So far I’ve still not seen any good arguments for what it actually adds to the game, rather the contrary. “Because it is more realistic” is not a good argument for why it needs to be in the game.
I think you are missing an important thing here. If you make it actual gear ratios and final drive it fucks up the gameplay completely: what happens when you change wheel diameter on the next page then? It would change the effective gearing of the car and thus make your choices on the previous page obsolete.
Our solution to this is to have not an absolute final drive value or gear ratios but to adjust those dynamically internally such that the speed reached in various gears remains where you set them.
We could rename the Top Speed slider (which is the correct terminology, because it is no absolute final drive value and it tells you the rev-limiter speed in the highest gear) into “Final Drive” without giving any numbers. That doesn’t add anything to the game though, it doesn’t make it more realistic either, just more confusing.
Hey, I could offer the alternative. Instead of the devs spending a shitton of hours adding a box that would add absolutely nothing of value to the game. Why don’t you guy who wanted to see diff ratio value take about 30 seconds and just look it up in the lua file? It’s not like you haven’t found it already.
Because of course I did just that and now I’m wondering how my 1975 top of the range luxury saloon with 3 speed automatic and 5.12 final drive ratio would drive like. I mean numbers like 0-100km/h in 10 seconds, 80-120km/h in 9.7 seconds and quarter mile in 17.7 seconds it’s currently showing are just meaningless number, right?
The problem is that having the sliders as it currently is destroys the suspension of disbelief. Any work wether it is a book or movie or game has to draw the person into the world and make them believe that what they are seeing is possible. From that perspective, “Because it is more realistic” is an extremely strong argument for it to be done right.
Why gearing and not everything else?
To answer that we have to parallel the camshafts again. Only a very small percentage of highly knowledgeable people will know what the difference is between grinds so leaving that section a bit simplified and cloudy does not impact the suspension of disbelief. However that’s not the case with gearing. Most car people know and fully understand gearing so not having it in there reminds them that its only a game. That’s the last thing you want if you are trying to draw people into a world and keep them there.
The wheel’s issue is a very good point. The first place to find a solution here is probably to look at the math.
Gear Efficiency - well say 95% for this example because its beyond the standard person how this works
Combined Gearing Factor = gear ratio * diff ratio
Wheel Circumference = Pi * Wheel Diameter
Top speed in a gear = rpm * combined gearing factor * gear efficiency * wheel circumference
rpm gear diff wheel diameter Speed
6000 3.98 2.85 600 56.83
6000 2.46 2.85 600 91.95
6000 1.58 2.85 600 143.16
6000 1 2.85 600 226.19
So by the time we get to the gearing page we actually have everything needed except for the wheel diameter. Now there are 2 solutions to this. The first would be to move the tire selection screen to be before the gearing screen. This way by the time we get to gearing the wheels are already done. This means that we are now free to use the sliders to come up with the top speed and spacing just as we are doing now or by choosing custom gears, without the issue as wheels have already been set. If people go back and change wheels again it will effect the top speed on the next page.
The second solution comes to light when we look at what happens when we go into the wheel page now. As soon as we pick a tire type, a default value is given to us as wheel diameter. If we change it so that a default tyre type is set when we enter the gearing page (thus also setting the current default wheel diameter) we can leave the order exactly like it is now and still have the sliders work.
Regardless of either solution, both give the ability to use the sliders to come up with a default gearing package and also give the option to enter custom real world figures if the defaults don’t doo it for the user.
Either way, it can be solved so that we have suspended disbelief in the world created.
Because its not really about seeing it but setting it from the game.
There is something out there that can kind of give you what you want. There is (or was) a plugin that would allow you to try out your engines in Beam NG. It won’t give you the whole car but it will let you see how your engines perform.
Being realistic can be a valid argument.
The issue though is that it must not make the game more complex w/o much added value, and at the end of the day, having a top speed slider or a final ratio gives the same level of adjustability, except one adds complexity for the sake of having a “real” number.
I found the numbers to be confusing, i saw videos of people messing with various flywheels,etc… but there is none of that, if it was already in game, maybe consider adding the cam,valves,ratios and various other things after release for the more hardcore gearheads out there, be it a free update or a DLC I know I would pay a bit extra for the added “realism”
