[DISCUSSION] Automation Drift Series

Let’s face it, simulating drift cars and drift racing is well outside Automation’s scope. But it can’t hurt to think about how it might pan out, right?

besides, I love drift, it’s so damn childish

It probably goes without saying that drifting as we know it is the art of deliberately throwing your car sideways while moving under power, and holding a slip angle. More angle and more speed generally means more style points, though how these things are judged varies from series to series. But drifting is not something that any of the cars in Automation do, since they’re instructed to run to the limits of their grip and no more. Similarly, the values for drivability and sportiness in cornering are based on grip, and the wheelspin factor is a penalty.

So, for interest’s sake (and because I want to defy the Automation metric), how does one assess a drift car in Automation? It probably pays to know how one is set up in the first place. For quick, simple reference:

In summary, these characteristics are necessary:

  • Powered wheels must be able to easily break traction
  • The suspension and chassis must be set up for terminal oversteer
  • The suspension and chassis must have as little understeer at any speed in cornering as possible
  • The car still needs to have some semblance of control during the drift itself

To facilitate this, and for competition homologation purposes, these rules are generally in place:

  • Manual transmission
  • Everybody uses the same grade tyre
  • No driving aids aside from possibly power steering
  • Minimum safety requirement
  • No active components in suspension

Also I’ve never heard of active aero being used in a drift GP, but that’s because they tend to be pretty tight on what production cars are allowed in, and that definitely never includes hypercars (although Daigo Saito has a MR converted Liberty Walk Drift Murcielago…). And you’re thrashing these cars like crazy, generally tuning the crap out of the engine, and almost invariably smashing panels off it on most runs. But we’re not here to simulate real life… so much as enhance it. So I figured, I’d like to also explore drift cars that you wouldn’t see in real life, i.e.

  • Hypercars and other non-drift car classes e.g. SUVs, trucks, minivans…
  • Non FR formats i.e. AWD and MR. Not so sure it’d work with FF because that would involve lift off oversteer which is the opposite of what drift emphasises (unless you’re Jason Plato at Brands Hatch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuTNmVoUR5E)

So here’s what I propose for scoring:

  • Breaking traction is important. So the wheelspin penalty will be used to determine how easy it is to do so in your car and therefore just how easily you can initiate and hold a drift using throttle. However, I’m aware the wheelspin calculation only calculates the first couple of gears, AFAIK, so input on how this might be used to calculate higher drift entry speeds would be helpful. Maybe being guided by the accel/grip graph?
  • The low speed handling graph will be the most useful for determining how easy it is to steer the car into a drift. I’d recommend the yellow line sticking as close as possible to the red line, and generally achieving an S coefficient as close as possible to 1.00 is the best way to do this. Also note tyre stagger will affect the shape of the curve, so degree of tyre stagger may play a small role
  • Maximum cornering G is important because this indicates how fast you can hold a drift around a corner. I’m not yet sure whether I will make this an independent factor, because of later considerations
  • Drivability is also important as a counterbalance, from an Automation point of view. I know everything I just mentioned above would kill drivability, but if you maxxed out all of that and ended up with a drivability of 0, well, it’d be really hard to control the car, right? I’m not yet sure whether to simply make the drivability part of the product to determine points, or make it the focus of a random number calculation in success of drift versus crashing out, which might be more realistic, but invoking random number generators makes me uneasy.
  • And the unique factor here… track time. I could make like the GRID Drift GP series where your position isn’t so much the winning factor so much as the multiplier factor when making drifts. In this way then you’d have to consider racking up style points versus driving fast so you get a higher multiplier and try to figure out where your opponents in your division have pitched. I know this isn’t really how drift tourneys work in real life but if I don’t involve a track time factor, there may not be a point to even running the cars on a track without a very labour intensive and convoluted system of measures.

So at this stage, drift scoring would involve some kind of product of wheelspin and cornering sportiness coefficient (exponents may be involved), with overall track time being a minor modifier, and drivability being a major modifier.

I’d also love to use different classes of cars, as mentioned, but we’ll go into that more later. First things first, what do you think? If this idea has potential I’ll start illustrating it in a bit more detail, when I get time.

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This sounds pretty cool, I’m all for it. I certainly have drifting experience on our snowy roads… nothing like accidentally drifting at 100 km/h to get the heart pumping :laughing:

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Nothing to get your heart pumping like…

RUNNING IN THE NINETIEEEEEEEES loooooooooooooooool

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like it. i really have no idea of how to calculate or judge it though

Make it from 2000 onward, and you’re sure and certain to have a certain android doing something he likes best. Not sure what car I’d go for, though. Maybe a Wildcat Envy with the front halfshafts removed…

If you do this, and I really hope you do, I’m totally in.
Wonder if I can tune one of my old live axle 80’s-90’s v8 mucsle cars to hang it out sideways with the JDM crews.

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SIGN ME UP!
i would love to make drift cars :slight_smile:

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This looks like fun

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I think you’ve gotten everything penned down good and proper except for tuning for “terminal” oversteer. I’d suggest tuning for getting the S coeficient as close to 100 in low speed as you suggested and doing the same thing in high speed, but getting it slightly over is better then under, but still keeping the car from spinning out, as in “terminal” oversteer :wink: . I think keeping the car still within control is something that is sought after in drifting, too.

It will still result in higher sportiness than driveability and keeping the fine line between terminal and controlled oversteer is were the real challenge lies. And, you will still be able to get some driveability out of the car.

And for tirecompund, i suggest using medium, as it’s not as grippy as sports but still better than the hard compound and gives you some more point in the driveability department.

And for getting the hang of drift competition, check out some formula drift, most of them are based on speed, control and style, so having tracktime as one of the modifiers is a given.

hmm… a drift challenge, i might be interested as long as i can enter a truck, cause who says trucks don’t drift :wink:

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Oh yeah by terminal oversteer I just mean the end of the low speed graph points up and not down. If it’s too far up the sportiness value goes down as controllable cornering still goes down anyway, which will also adversely affect maximum cornering speed and therefore the drift style points. Aiming for the graph pointing up and the S of 1.00 should cover it nicely.

I will illustrate this when I get time, probably tomorrow.

okay then. my APL car might be the perfect test mule for this.

a non-tire-staggered MR car that doesn’t have an oversteer tendencies

low speed graph

a single notch anywhere will make it oversteer.

high speed graph

if anything. the problem might be that it has too much grip, and it’s an MR racing car setup for grip races

and here’s the car to play around with

Cool-K - APL1-koolkei.zip (33.8 KB)

For professional drifting you want all the grip you can. The idea of wanting less grip for drifting comes from people using cars without enough power/speed to break traction with high grip tires

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Lol you ninja’d me there.

But yes, basically you want to be able to break traction, but more traction means more cornering which means faster, sicker drifts. Formula Drift cars use ridiculously soft grippy compounds and fat tyres. But they’re also generally pushing four figure outputs, making them the most powerful cars in modern motorsport competition. The rules are pretty loose and that’s the beauty of it, you see some hilarious Monster swaps.

Edit: I still haven’t decided whether to change calcs for MR. Basically in real life they’re harder to catch the drift as you have to opposite lock even before the rear crosses the midline or it’ll just swing out like a flail. But when it works you can plug away at the throttle and get crazy slip angles. I have to check to see if the drivability score is affected accordingly.

Also hot damn @koolkei that thing has no tyre stagger??? Your weight distribution must be very good for that to happen. I’ll play with it and work out a system this week, then invite people to submit various builds.

I’m pretty sure wheel spin ignores first gear and counts for the rest.

That would make sense and if that’s the case then I can use that.

Alternatively I can look at the graph and determine which gears actually get wheel spin and match that to the course. Or simply use a course with really tight bends. I would start with Haruna downhill except it’s extremely long for a drift course and chances are everybody will crash.

Well, looks like I’m not hosting the drift challenge like I wanted to. I also got the ruleset ready to go for my return, but seems you got a grasp on things.

You could look at the graph and see at what speed the car can no longer break traction and watch how fast the car goes through the corners. My test vehicle can break the tires loose at over 150kph, though I have noticed that as I bring that speed up the wheel spin stat goes down, so you might use both.

Oh shit I don’t recall your saying you wanted to host one! What were your plans? It’s gonna be a little while before I get this off the ground anyway.

You remember that Performance Tuner Time Attack challenge?