QFC45 - Winged Warriors [RESULTS]

Community Challenges & Competitions
1

QFC45
Winged Warriors

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The Idea
The 1969 Nascar season was filled with new “aero” type cars, getting in on the trend for the 1970 season could prove to be a good move for upcoming car manufactures to get some fame.
Produce a road car that can be used for the 1970 Nascar series.

Priorities

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Aesthetic - It’s got to look the part

Sportiness - A car that can challenge the others
This will be a little more than just the stat itself, so keep that in mind.

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Reliability No good if the car can’t make it to the end of weekend

Driveability - The driver needs to be able to handle the car, no matter how powerful

Prestige - These cars need to sell well

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Comfort - A nice bonus

Safety - Cars are dangerous, the less the better


RULES
Model and Family year - FREE

Trim and Variant year - 1970

Wheelbase - 2.8m to 3.2m - No rounding up or down

Engine Capacity - max of 7.05L (430CUI)

$20,000 Max Price

Up to 98RON is allowed

Radial tyres - I believe 1970 was just about the threshold for radial tyres becoming a thing in the USA

No race parts - This includes Turbo and N/A Race headers, Race intake and race tyres.
Includes Semislicks (this means they are NOT allowed)

Techpool default +5 all round for engine AND trim

No limits on Quality

Must submit an ad with atleast 1 image

You will get one resubmission before the deadline

Naming Scheme and Deadlines
Model and Family name: QFC45 – [your forum name]
Trim and Variant name: Free

Rules deliberation until Thursday 30th May 20:00 GMT
Entries will close Sunday 9th June 23:59 GMT

Other notes about rules

An Interior is recommended and will give very minor boost to the design overall (Seat, Dashboard and Steering wheel counts)

I know it is QFC, I’m trying for a quick turn around. I’d very much like for it to not overun into my AGC timeline, if need be I can push it back to the weekend of the 8th/9th. As it is you have part of this weekend, and next weekend, it should be enough.


Inspirations

Dodge Charger Daytona

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Plymouth Superbird

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Ford Torino King Cobra

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Ford Torino Talladega

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Mercury Cyclone Spoiler II

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List of cars legal for the 1970 season, use as inspiration

The following 1970 cars have been classified in Category 1 –

AMERICAN MOTORS–Ambassador

DODGE–Polara, Monaco

BUICK–LeSabre, Wildcat, Electra
225, Riviera

FORD–Galaxie, Custom

MERCURY–Marauder, Marquis,
Monterey

CADILLAC–Eldorado, 60 Special,
75 Limousine, Calais de Ville

OLDSMOBILE–Delta 88, 98,
Toronado

CHEVROLET–Impala, Caprice,
Belair

PLYMOUTH–Fury

CHRYSLER–Newport, 300, New
Yorker, Imperial

PONTIAC–Catalina, Executive,
Bonneville

The following 1969 cars have been classified in Category 1 –

AMERICAN MOTORS–Ambassador

DODGE–Polara, Monaco

BUICK–LeSabre, Wildcat, Electra
225, Riviera

FORD–Galaxie, Custom

MERCURY–Marauder, Marquis,
Monterey

CADILLAC–Eldorado, 60 Special,
75 Limousine, Calais de Ville

OLDSMOBILE–Delta 88, 98,
Toronado

CHEVROLET–Impala, Caprice,
Belair

PLYMOUTH–Fury

CHRYSLER–Newport, 300, New
Yorker, Imperial

PONTIAC–Catalina, Executive,
Bonneville

The following 1968 cars have been classified in Category 1–

AMERICAN MOTORS–Ambassador

DODGE–Polara, Monaco

BUICK–LeSabre, Wildcat, Electra
225, Riviera

FORD–Galaxie, etc.

MERCURY–Mercury

CADILLAC–Eldorado, 60 Special,
75 Limousine, Calais de Ville

OLDSMOBILE–Delmont, Delta 88
Ninety-Eight, Toronado

CHEVROLET–Impala, etc.

PLYMOUTH–Fury

CHRYSLER–Newport, 300, New
Yorker, Imperial

PONTIAC–Catalina, Executive
Bonneville, Grand Prix

Category 2–Intermediate size cars.

The following 1970 cars have been classified in Category 2 –

AMERICAN MOTORS–Rebel

MERCURY–Montego, Cyclone

BUICK–Special, Skylark,
GS 350, GS 400

OLDSMOBILE–F-85, Cutlass, 442

PLYMOUTH–Belvedere GTX,
RoadRunner

CHEVROLET–Chevelle, Monte Carlo

DODGE–Coronet, Charger

FORD–Torino

PONTIAC–Tempest, GTO,
Grand Prix

The following 1969 cars have been classified in Category 2 –

AMERICAN MOTORS–Rebel

FORD–Torino, Talladega

BUICK–Special, Skylark, GS 350
GS 400

MERCURY–Montego, Cyclone
Spoiler

CHEVROLET–Chevelle

OLDSMOBILE–F-85

DODGE–Coronet, Charger 500,
Charger Daytona

PLYMOUTH–Satellite

PONTIAC–Tempest, GTO

The following 1968 cars have been classified in Category 2–

AMERICAN MOTORS–Rebel

FORD–Fairlane

BUICK–Special, Skylark, GS 350
GS 400

MERCURY–Montego

OLDSMOBILE–F-85

CHEVROLET–Chevelle

PLYMOUTH–Satellite

DODGE–Coronet, Charger

PONTIAC–Tempest, GTO

Previous QFC

Changelog
Added wheelbase limits
Added engine capacity limits
Clarified inspirations


Written with the help of ChatGPT, any resemblance to the dreams of real people is entirely unintended, I hate spreadsheets and people who can't finish their challenges
11 Likes
2

Does this extend to US rules of the era around light shapes / colours / sizing, and all those other random things?

3

I would assume so for at least the visual component. I doubt you’ll be binned over having slightly off headlight sizes or something.

2 Likes
4

Hey does anyone want to collab? I can do the design :slight_smile:

5

Mainly talking about the engineering. As long as it looks correct I won’t bin you. Don’t put LEDS on it basically :stuck_out_tongue:

6

Awesome ty :slight_smile:

7

The unleaded fuel mandate had not yet kicked in by 1970, so a catalytic converter is not required. Minimum WES compatibility standards are not mentioned either, since they aren’t required.

8

I’ve got a somewhat realistic 425cui engine ready :stuck_out_tongue:

2 Likes
9

Do we care about if the car has ridiculous lift at speed? So long as it looks as if the car could be generating downforce while racing?

Also, how close will these homologation heroes be to the actual cars that would be racing? Are we building cars that will be stripped out of any excess weight and flung around the track or is this going to be an exterior option stuck onto any old muscle car for the fans that have more dollars than cents sense?

10

Do the entries have to have the same “aero” work as the superbird and daytona? Can we achieve aerodynamic efficiency with other design styles? I’m worried here that this is going to end up as who cant build the best superbird replica

11

The '69 Charger 500 that preceded the Daytona counts as an early NASCAR aero car, as does the contemporary Ford Torino Talladega, but these were milder examples, with no actual wings, although they did have flush-fitting headlights, grilles, and rear windows.

12

Like in the third example I’ve given, it’s less extreme than the others. as long as it’s not a flat faced muscle car :stuck_out_tongue:

13

So, where does the 1969 Ford Torino Talledega land on “flat faced muscle car” then?

Reproduction_of_the_1969_Ford_Talladega_Race_Car_driven_by_David_Pearson
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Here’s a modern reproduction of 1969’s championship-winning Talledega Torino driven by David Pearson - note the flat face! Those outrageous wings and sharp nose cones were the approach taken by Mopar, with Plymouth and Dodge using them. The 1970 season may have slanted towards Mopar cars, but Ford and Mercury both notched a fair amount of wins over a variety of tracks, including winning a qualifier for the Daytona 500, the Firecracker 400 (which was held at Daytona) and a 400-mile race on the 2-mile Michigan speedway.

Your third example there is the Ford King Cobra, a prototype that never actually saw production, being abandoned due to shifts in corporate priorities - but even the Cobra provides a good example for why boiling the aero cars down to just “what Mopar was doing” is wrong. The aero cars were ultimately closer in approach to those that preceeded them than those that would follow in the modern age - there was no wind tunnel testing, no CFD, no objective metrics utilised in the creation to arrive at a solution which is x% better than the alternatives. These cars were ultimately based on how certain designers thought would be best for the airflow - it’s just that the aero cars were designed with people who had some form of experience in the basic principles of aerodynamics, while the predecessors were designed by what amounted to laypeople. Mopar’s engineers knew what worked for missiles, so they applied that knowledge from missiles to the cars. Ford and Mercury had different knowledge bases, and acted differently. Maybe the King Cobra represents the sort of convergence that is inevitable for sufficiently long-lasting regulations, the creation of the ideal car through competition and imitation of design… But we’ll never know.

TLDR: As it is now, the brief is asking for one of the approaches taken to the season, and it seems like an actual real car that was raced and won that season would not be looked upon favourably. That seems wrong to me.

4 Likes
14

That is the exact thought process behind this challenge, while real life examples show that the Torino was simply better, at the time people were jumping on this aero bandwagon incase it really did take off. Had the aero cars not been shut down so harshly perhaps the cars would have developed further (and thus better) but that’s part of the charm I want to see. It’d be too easy to make a generic muscle car, lower it and be done. Instead go “against” the norm, how will you incorporate a sloping front, what kind of wing would suit the rear of the car?

Again, your point is fair and absolutely correct, but that’s using hindsight. I deliberately left it out after reading about it because it was boring to me. I want the participants to build their take on what an entrant using the mopar styling for the 1970 season might be. Yes in real life this would set you up for failure, but 1- none of the teams know that and 2- this isn’t real.

I suppose this is more of a “what if”, you’d like to cling to the real life rules a little more. I’d like to see some innovation. This seems like a harsh answer with not much of a point behind it, because it is just my opinion on what I want to see. Perhaps I can add some rules to make sure it sways that way, rather than hinting at it.

2 Likes
15

This is just a crappy premise for a QFC, to be blunt. Very limited entry diversity allowed. In fact it reads more like an RDC brief, with the high realism priority and interior bonus.

You’re also going to get a whole bunch of entries that don’t bother reading Bill France’s whole rulebook and score very low on realism courtesy of entering compact cars, IRS, non-regulation engines etc

16

Having an interior will account for roughy 1/100 total points, so not a bonus as such, but enough to tip the scales in your favour vs others. It won’t make a bad car a good car.
I agree with the limited options, however I haven’t stated a number of the rules like wheelbases and such because there isn’t actually any bodies that fit the rules for the time, they’re all too long or too short. Which is exactly why I’m not going to judge harshly on those things if they’re off the mark. What I am looking for though is sensible engine sizes, carb types, suspension.

QFC is a quick challenge, for both the participants and the host. It does not mean that either one can do a sloppy job of slapping shit together.

Both you and @AMuteCrypt have very similar criticisms but haven’t stated what you actually want to change. I can put in a wheelbase range, I can put an engine size range along with maybe a market sales number, if that would make things more interesting. I might as well open up the type of cars so there’s two or three options of how to make things.

I prefer to let my inspirations do the talking for where a build should go, but perhaps for this QFC I’ll tighten down on the rules and steer it that way. I’ll extend rules deliberation another day too.

2 Likes
17

The clarifications and extra inspirations have made this a lot better, especially as a non-American who isn’t all that familiar with NASCAR or US cars of that era, thank you.

18

My requested change seems to be one that it looks like you don’t want to make - allowing a wider variety of final products. You’ve effectively said you don’t want the aesthetic used by the Fords that actually raced, you want a relatively specific approach, the Mopar approach. That’s fair as a challenge host, but it absolutely doesn’t represent the reality of NASCAR as it stood in 1970 - a wild west with aerodynamic race cars in their infancy and multiple approaches being trialled in parallel. More broadly, this is a brief which punishes creative design. You’ve come right out and said that realistic approaches to the brief that differ from the Mopar style aren’t what you want to receive. The challenge is less “Make a car for the 1970 NASCAR Season” and more “Make a Mopar entry for the 1970 NASCAR Season”.

It sucks for me because I’d rather make something that uses the Ford approach, but such is life.

Edit: I posted this before seeing the extra inspirations. Maybe I’ll make a Ford-like, see how it does.

2 Likes
19

Having seen various inspirations put on the discord for what people wish they could make, it is clear that the aero cars that do have the flat front aren’t just “stock” they are elongated and slightly curved downwards at the end, to a flat face. Clearly there was some overhang rule stuff that made this possible, so I have added those Inspirations in, along with written ones (for those that presumably could race but didn’t?)

Still, hopefully this opens it out a bit.

4 Likes
20

It’s been a while, and I’m here asking for a collaboration