Suggesting a penalty for when the brake power exceeds the tire capacity in cars without ABS. And a further suggestion is after that have implemented a brake bias modifier to stats given that if the rear brakes looks first the car will spin.
Also, the penalty being more severe the sooner the brake power crosses the tire capability.
Was this clear?
all makes sense, but i’m really not sure about the bias bit
If I recall correctly, the brake fade calculations will be revised now on this rebalancing subproject, having the penalty for locking too easily without ABS does sound to me as a good idea.
With the way brake pad type affects brake fade, I think you would have to have an additional brake bias slider if you wanted to incorporate a penalty for brakes locking up. That said, once you implement it, I imagine drivability and sportiness would be affected by:
[ul]
]Which locks up first: front (penalty to sportiness) or rear (penalty to drivability)./:m]
]How prone to locking up are they? (penalties to both drivability and sportiness for amount of locking up)./:m][/ul]
…and all of these penalties would be reduced by ABS, and more so if the ABS is of higher quality.
For example my truck is damned near IMPOSSIBLE to lock up the front wheels, the rears though are super happy to lock up (when the ABS isnt working which happens after a very bumpy dirt road), when the ABS IS working the truck stops like a dream. BUT, here is the kicker, it only has REAR ABS, and it is NOT based off of wheel speed but differential speed, so even if ONE wheel locks the ABS system still sees movement in the differential due to the other wheel still spinning and thinks everything is “ok”, this could be the lowest “quality” ABS I can think of but it IS better than no ABS.
A drivability penalty for overpowering brakes w/o ABS sounds like a good idea, I’ll look into that.
It would make weaker brakes more “usable” then, as it is now everyone pretty much maxes out their brakes with very little in the way of penalties when over the grip limit. This would be a great addition IMO. Also even WITH ABS there should be a penalty albeit less, mainly because the ABS system is going to be working MUCH more often, maybe make it hit the comfort stat a bit? Car “drives” fine but who would want to drive a car that activates its ABS at every stop sign? That WOULD get uncomfy.
The thing is, every single modern car has brakes that can overpower the tires.
So we need to make sure cars that have a decently tuned setup don’t get penalized too much, not creating cheesy strategies like the current overpowerness of overly long 1st gears.
Obviously if the wheels lock when you look at the pedal wrong, then it is an issue, but if its properly tuned I don’t see how it can create any major driveability problems.
Yeah, that is a valid point, tpu. However on the game right now, the best strategy seems to be maximising the brake size and then having a low-ish pad, resulting in very powerful brakes that would indeed lock easily and just having the biggest brakes you could fit on all cars.
[quote=“TrackpadUser”]The thing is, every single modern car has brakes that can overpower the tires.
[/quote]
That is why I thought of this. I was, and still am, trying to recreate a tycoon campaign, building cars through time. It initially started as a test to how long an engine could be used.
During this I realized the game wasn’t following real life logic when it came to brakes.
I mean, I drive a car with no ABS, and I wouldn’t want to replace my back drum brakes with disc brake. Not with the tires I’m using now. I swear to you if I had bigger brakes I would already have run over a person or two. There is a reason discs all around only became standard after ABS appeared.
That and people dont know how to drive 
What is NOT fun is having your drums pretend they are super discs when slightly wet, man do they lock up QUICK then. And I do not agree that every modern car can overpower the tires, the cheapest eco boxes with GOOD tires (not those crap ones they come with) might have issues locking up the fronts, generally though it is the pickup category that has issues locking up the fronts from my experience, mainly due to the sheer amount of weight up front and lack of weight in the back…but then again my truck isnt “modern” anymore, 1989 was quite some time ago.
I suppose that “payload carrier” vehicle need way more braking force to deal with the higher weight given by the payload.
I’ve never completely locked the wheels on my F-150… but it’s a 2010 and I have ABS. However, in snow and ice, the rears always lock first because the front has the most weight and the longitudinal center of gravity moves forward during braking as the shocks in the front compress. The rear has little weight over the axle when empty and the leaf springs don’t do much to help. That reduction of weight equals reduction of friction and traction as a result. Then couple that with brakes designed to be able to stop a vehicle and towing capacity that exceeds 10,000 lbs and you have yourself some lock-up in the right conditions.
Weird… The ONLY cars I’ve ever been in with 4-wheel discs have been non-ABS cars.
[quote=“ArnRno”]
Weird… The ONLY cars I’ve ever been in with 4-wheel discs have been non-ABS cars.[/quote]
Such as?
[quote=“PMP1337”]
Weird… The ONLY cars I’ve ever been in with 4-wheel discs have been non-ABS cars.
Such as?[/quote]
In for examples. Most modern cars are 4-wheel disc, unless they’re super economy busters. Most modern cars also have ABS, as they reduce insurance costs and increase safety measurements. I have ABS on my 2007, with 2-wheel disc, but it falls into the economy car group mentioned above. I would say the opposite is true. MOST cars with 4-wheel discs have ABS, unless they are more than 10 years old. But more likely this is because many cars 10+ years ago didn’t have ABS at all.
[quote=“PMP1337”]
Weird… The ONLY cars I’ve ever been in with 4-wheel discs have been non-ABS cars.
Such as?[/quote]
In Australia we’ve had non-ABS 4 wheel disc brake cars since 1987… 
carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/used-car-review-mitsubishi-magna-tn-1987-1989-13310
ABS stops wheel lock-up so you can steer the car while hard braking. ABS actually makes the braking distance worse than a full lock-up as locked wheels provide more friction and stop the car quicker.
ABS trades off distance for control by allowing the driver to attempt to avoid the obstacle rather than hope they won’t hit it. You don’t need ABS to control disc brakes but you need disc brakes to run ABS.
The cars with drum rears has the ABS only working on the front of the car. 
You managed to get all of your information wrong, hol.
My car, and lots of others, have 4-way ABS, but drums on the rear. Of course, drums aren’t usually powerful enough to lock the wheels, but the system is there anyway. ABS does cut the stopping distance while making the car more controllable, as locked wheels don’t provide as much friction as those on the edge of locking, except on gravel and snow, but that is because if the wheels are locked there is a build up of snow and mud in front of the tyres, helping slow it down, as it’s digging into the surface. Modern ABS systems counter that by allowing a small amount of lock when it detects that the surface is slippery.
[quote=“PMP1337”]
Such as?[/quote]
My Isuzu Trooper, and an NA Miata (US car names) - those are the only cars I’ve been in that were 4-wheel disc, and neither had anti-lock.
The car I have now, a newer Impreza, is the only car I’ve had with anti-lock, but it’s disc/drum.
[quote=“Leonardo9613”]
…Of course, drums aren’t usually powerful enough to lock the wheels, but the system is there anyway…[/quote]
…and see, the only time I’ve ever locked brakes have been drums!
My old GMC truck would lock the rears with only moderate pedal effort, of course it was a one-ton truck and usually unloaded, so there’s that.
Also, my Impala was 4-wheel drum, and I have definitely locked-up all four wheels before, same with the Oldsmobile that I have now, and the Olds is a single-chambered master.
This is DEFINITELY a case of “your mileage may vary,” it seems like. 
[quote=“Leonardo9613”]You managed to get all of your information wrong, hol.
My car, and lots of others, have 4-way ABS, but drums on the rear. Of course, drums aren’t usually powerful enough to lock the wheels, but the system is there anyway. ABS does cut the stopping distance while making the car more controllable, as locked wheels don’t provide as much friction as those on the edge of locking, except on gravel and snow, but that is because if the wheels are locked there is a build up of snow and mud in front of the tyres, helping slow it down, as it’s digging into the surface. Modern ABS systems counter that by allowing a small amount of lock when it detects that the surface is slippery.[/quote]
I wouldn’t say all wrong… There really have been 4 wheel disc non-ABS cars since the mid 80’s in Australia!
I’ll happily retract my statements regarding drums not being able to have ABS control and a full lock braking event is indeed worse than an ABS controlled one.
Interestingly there is (IMO poorly done) video evidence that skilled candence braking out-performs ABS but, in regards to Automation, ABS definitely improves the driveability score!
FYI, drums can be powerful enough to lock up rears, as the weight transfer forwards, which can unload the rear tyres. This will result in the rear brakes locking up (disc or drum) so the OP has the right idea; regardless of brake type there should be a penalty for over-powerful brakes. 
TL;DR… Over-large brakes (of all types) need punishment, stat!